Image by asoggetti

The Grit Theory

Search

UnTrenched 6. Why is it Easy to Hate Hope?



 

Today Sandy and I explore the following 3 questions:


- What is Hope?

- Why is it easy to hate hope?

- How can we inspire hope?


Did you find value in today’s conversation? SHARE IT!


Join The Grit Theory Community Here!

 

08;06;30;24 - 08;06;10;24

Jon

Hello and welcome to UnTrenched. This is Jon and Sany, as is tradition. Today we have another set of three questions we've really been enjoying working with sets of questions, the last couple episodes that we're going to explore for our own benefit and also hopefully for years as well.


08;06;10;02 - 08;05;51;15

Jon

We're also hopeful you'll see this is upon that. There are some things of value that we can do with these questions because it's kind of a strange topic. So without further ado, I'll list the questions and then let's see how you're doing and go from there.


08;05;50;00 - 08;05;32;22

Jon

But the questions day or what is hope? Why is it easy to hate hope and how can we inspire hope? And I think an important tack on is and use it in our lives, so benefit from it so that how are you this morning?


08;05;32;22 - 08;05;30;05

Jon

You ready to just answer all these questions and we can just move on?


08;05;29;23 - 08;05;25;07

Sandy

Always, always ready. So we're going to dove in and see where this goes.


08;05;25;00 - 08;05;23;20

Jon

And you have the answers, right?


08;05;23;07 - 08;05;18;14

Sandy

Absolutely. Oh yes, that's why we do this. We already have the answers.


08;05;17;05 - 08;04;57;21

Jon

OK, let's see. So. This is one of those weird ones because I have a love hate relationship with it so I can jump in, see if I can help us get the juices flowing. You know, so I think Cope's one of those things that you need the opposite of hope to define it.


08;04;57;00 - 08;04;40;19

Jon

So as I think about it, I'm really going to start with despair. What is despair? And I think despair is this idea. Without like looking up the Webster's dictionary definition, you know, to be in despair and to be in despair is to be in crisis, right?


08;04;40;08 - 08;04;19;27

Jon

It's to feel. As though all is lost, it's to feel defeated. It's to feel a lot like weak. Unable to effect change on your circumstances, a victim that's at sway of whatever powers that are, be right. That's to be in despair.


08;04;18;29 - 08;03;57;20

Jon

And it's ultimately hopeless, which makes it really easy to, you know, from that idea to jump to war. What the heck is hope? I think hope is this idea. That we are. Capable of effecting change regardless of how we may feel, regardless of our circumstances, and that it doesn't have to be a certain way, I think that


08;03;57;11 - 08;03;33;00

Jon

it's just this spark. It's just this idea that. There can be more. There can be difference in that. It is not always going to be. Despair. Bleak darkness, depression that it's temporal and that. You know, the Don will come again, you know, the Sun will rise again, things will become more positive if we can work to it


08;03;33;00 - 08;03;14;07

Jon

, if we can make it happen, if we can sometimes just survive, right? So when I think about hope. I think that you can't understand it without first thinking about deep, dark. Horrible places, because if you do think about that.


08;03;13;08 - 08;02;57;29

Jon

Then I can much more easily say, OK in a non gushy way, hope is just the small glimmer. There's just this idea that I want to keep on living and I want to survive. I'd be on this to get to where it can be better and that it can get better.


08;02;57;17 - 08;02;57;07

Jon

Yeah.


08;02;55;25 - 08;02;40;17

Sandy

That's good, I mean, I think. Make your right. And we all can point to moments in our lives where we've experienced either despair or hope, but it doesn't make it any easier to define them. So we we sort of have this sense of what those those words are.


08;02;40;17 - 08;02;19;06

Sandy

We we know we've experienced it, but something that you mentioned, I think, is really true. Hope it's sort of external to us. Right. So it's regardless of our circumstances, it's it's a belief. It's it's an expectation. There's an expectancy and it's not.


08;02;18;17 - 08;02;03;19

Sandy

And I think it's different from optimism, which can sometimes feel lofty and idealistic, right? Sort of like, Oh, things are going to be great. And you might not even have a clear picture that things are going to be good.


08;02;02;27 - 08;01;32;05

Sandy

But hope is this sense in belief that. There is the possibility, great. And so what, what makes it? What makes this determine that we want to take that next step, continue on to pursue, to to imagine, to look forward is is that we know there's a possibility that things can be better.


08;01;29;22 - 08;01;13;07

Sandy

And that our circumstances in the moment might not dictate, you know, the totality of our experience. And so I think there's this if hope really requires that we sort of look outside of our circumstances. And so I do see that external kind of component to it.


08;01;09;17 - 08;00;50;09

Jon

You know, I think you touched on there's like essentially this Hollywood hope, right, there's this like Hallmark Card garbage that's like this, like everything's going to be great and just have hope and like sunshine and rainbows. I think about like a kid's book, right, like a really poorly done kid's book that is actually useless.


08;00;50;09 - 08;00;37;21

Jon

It doesn't impart anything of value for the kid and just has a care bears and unicorns and stuff. And I think that's like the counterfeit version that's really easy to scoff at. What the heck are these guys talking about?


08;00;37;21 - 08;00;21;19

Jon

Hope for that stupid like that? I don't even want to talk about it, which leads into our second question of why is it so easy to hate? And I think that's because. one, there's this cheap version of hope that sets up false expectations that makes life very painful, if that's what you're clinging to, and it's naivete.


08;00;21;18 - 08;00;03;20

Jon

Right? It's like in my mind, it's directly married to naivete if you're naively hopeful. Bennett leads a lot of room for unnecessary pain. Born of that naivete? So that's one reason it's really easy to hate hope. The other reason is because it's not this.


08;00;02;01 - 09;59;42;15

Jon

Good feeling. Right. It's really a beckoning call in my, you know, in my mind is really beckoning call that requires tremendous courage to embrace it. And it is a very difficult path to. Embrace and walk and hope, which is why it's so easy to hate.


09;59;42;13 - 09;59;16;03

Jon

You know, there's this concept that the path less traveled on is less traveled on for reasons harder. You know, I think to. Choose to be choose to embrace hope. And to persevere and to strive to better your circumstances that are not good, that require you to need hope to continue forward purposefully.


09;59;13;29 - 09;59;01;02

Jon

Is. Something that is not the path of least resistance. You know, it's like it's a choice that's very you have to make and you have to cling to. And it's not even logical.


09;58;58;15 - 09;58;58;06

Sandy

Right?


09;58;57;03 - 09;58;43;09

Jon

And there's two ideas that come to mind, I think they're both valuable, but actually there's a couple of Sardis Rapid Fire and please jump in if you have an idea. Otherwise I'll try and do it quickly. But I'm thinking just of a few ideas where you see hope has changed.


09;58;42;06 - 09;58;24;02

Jon

Things, right, and I have him on these different scales, I think one is like, if if you're depressed and thinking about killing yourself and you realize in the moment that you wanted to kill yourself to have felt this way a few times, but it's past rate, it has gone away.


09;58;23;22 - 09;58;06;09

Jon

Maybe if I can just wait till morning, it'll go away again. Right? Maybe if I can just wait a little bit longer this, this overwhelming feeling of despair will go away. Right? That is one version of hope. You know, it's very intimately personal in the moment, right?


09;58;05;20 - 09;57;53;10

Jon

And then. It kind of in a kind of grows, why do you want to feel like that? Maybe you feel helpless. Maybe you're in circumstances that are oppressive and there are many things that are currently outside of your control that you're subject to.


09;57;51;29 - 09;57;40;05

Jon

You don't know how to navigate that, but you are. You have in that situation hope that you can change your circumstances not just to make it till morning, but that you can get to a lifestyle that is not in that position, right?


09;57;39;20 - 09;57;39;14

Sandy

Hmm.


09;57;38;19 - 09;57;21;02

Jon

And then if you keep on and instead. You do the hard work and the sacrifices and navigate. The challenges and survive the night to get into a place in life where. It's not you're not in mystery all the time, right?


09;57;21;02 - 09;57;17;18

Jon

You're not in despair and you're OK, man. My hope is to have made it this far right.


09;57;17;06 - 09;57;16;26

Sandy

Yeah.


09;57;16;11 - 09;56;55;12

Jon

And now you see a problem for those who walk that path before you or in your community in your act, this doesn't have to be this way. Mm hmm. Right. And so you pull on that string in your OK, well, how can I now become an agent who an agent of positive change in those situations so that


09;56;55;12 - 09;56;37;29

Jon

I can bring to fruition this belief that whatever this problem is, that I'm seeing that's affecting my community can be defeated in changed and go away. Yeah. And that's where you see everything from the drug addict who gets clean.


09;56;37;07 - 09;56;19;01

Jon

The person who talks about how they didn't kill themselves, you know, up to honestly, in my mind, Martin Luther King King comes into my mind in his I have a dream speech that all. You know, I've really been thinking about this part specifically, but that the belief that we would judge each other based on the quality of


09;56;18;28 - 09;56;02;05

Jon

our character first and foremost is just something that is. Truly beautiful to me and something that we, I think, must continue to embrace. But there's a hopefulness in that right. There's this ideal that we can continue to pursue and bring to fruition.


09;56;01;22 - 09;55;45;27

Jon

And we need to identify those who are for that in those who are against that and act accordingly. And I think that that is like scalable from the societal level all the way down to the. Can you make it to morning, don't end it.


09;55;45;16 - 09;55;45;07

Jon

Yeah.


09;55;44;14 - 09;55;25;14

Sandy

You know. To a couple of things you're saying. You know, I think hope requires some action on our part. So it's like. You have to take the next step to even see what might be right around the corner that maybe not being readily visible to you.


09;55;25;00 - 09;55;09;15

Sandy

But what hope does is says to you, I'm going to step into that. I'm going to see where this might go, because right now my circumstances aren't favorable. I don't see the final picture of where this might lead.


09;55;09;05 - 09;54;52;04

Sandy

But let me at least take a step in the direction of where I'd like to see movement in my life. And so it's it's it's this ability to move forward without a picture of a clear path forward. So I think that's a component of hope.


09;54;51;20 - 09;54;38;10

Sandy

And so I think there is that action component that you have to do something. But I think there's also peace where sometimes you need others to do to do something for you, right? So I think there are times where.


09;54;37;02 - 09;54;23;26

Sandy

We are in despair or that picture of hope isn't clear, and we need reminders or we need someone to say, Hey, let me come alongside you here, here's where we might, might go. And really just kind of see where this might lead us.


09;54;23;26 - 09;54;03;01

Sandy

There is a communal aspect. I think we need to to be reminded. I think we need others to help us forge that path. I think we need to see how others have navigated similar challenges and obstacles. And so I think hope is formed in community.


09;54;01;08 - 09;53;37;20

Jon

I think hope is, I think formed is fair, I I also think it's reinforced in community. And I think, you know, where I agree is that we're deeply. Relational creatures, right, we we need relationship, we need community. And what I'm thinking there, if we take your what I just heard your thought to be and put it to


09;53;37;20 - 09;53;21;24

Jon

like the scalability from like the suicide ideations to wanting to change society. I think one of the first steps you know where you are in that scale determines a lot of you'll see a difference in what the community looks like.


09;53;21;19 - 09;52;59;08

Jon

Right. But where I agree is, I think you desperately need relationship on every phase of it and how it change it by a healthy relationship like relationship that is good and by good. I mean it. It helps move in the direction that you want your life to go, the positive direction towards the solution, not towards drugs and


09;52;59;08 - 09;52;56;11

Jon

drinking and killing yourself, right? So it's.


09;52;56;11 - 09;52;56;07

Sandy

Like.


09;52;55;11 - 09;52;39;22

Jon

You know, like for the person who wants to kill himself. They probably. Just need to pursue relationship. With people who don't want to make them killed himself as a starting place, that's like the direction I can, I find anyone who speaks.


09;52;38;16 - 09;52;18;13

Jon

Positively, yeah, pursues a positive existence, anyone to begin spending time with. Right? Yeah. And then on the societal scale, it's like, I need to safeguard myself or you'd like the family scale, the community scale, like whatever level where you're, you know, on that scale beyond and above, where you're working to create a better life for your working


09;52;18;13 - 09;52;02;12

Jon

to build a better existence for your family where you're working to solve a problem that's affecting your community, your life or your community better. You need to safeguard yourself. ARM yourself with people who will come alongside you. Like you're saying that when you're weak, you can keep going.


09;52;02;11 - 09;52;01;25

Jon

Right?


09;52;01;07 - 09;51;36;20

Sandy

Yeah, because in despair, there's this in mobilization, right? And I think I think in community, I think we we get this momentum, this mobilization, this inertia that moves us in a direction, right? And again, it may not be a forward direction right away, but I think once there's motion, things happen and you start to see you start


09;51;36;20 - 09;51;30;04

Sandy

to see possibilities. And I think that that's where hope it can be born in the seeing possibilities.


09;51;28;20 - 09;51;08;17

Jon

Yeah, I agree, and I think that also despair is loud and vicious right in it, and it's very logically fact based, and it uses that to start to then hijack the emotional response, right? Hmm. Because because like when I think about things that are hopeful, I have to believe in things that don't yet exist.


09;51;07;08 - 09;51;02;18

Jon

But when I'm in despair, I have 1,000,000,000 examples in front of me of why to despair.


09;51;02;07 - 09;51;00;14

Sandy

Yeah, it's obvious.


09;50;58;23 - 09;50;46;08

Jon

And I think there's something to that, though, because one of the I was going a direction, but this other idea that's been in my mind as we've been talking. Hijacked the direction because I can't even remember where I was going.


09;50;45;27 - 09;50;30;22

Jon

So to spit it out. But you know, the problem is the person who's fighting for the community. You know, this higher level of hope, like we can bring better education. We can judge each other upon, ah, the value of our character and not upon the value of her skin, which, by the way, just a funny fact.


09;50;30;16 - 09;50;20;13

Jon

If you're judging people based on the value of their character, there's going to be people who are super crappy. There's going to people who are good to be based on their character. It doesn't mean everyone's great. Just a funny thought.


09;50;19;20 - 09;50;18;21

Sandy

Yeah, but.


09;50;16;16 - 09;50;01;07

Jon

Well. Wherever you are, despair is still going to attack you. Absolutely right. Like I. You know, this is a little bit of vulnerability, but I feel compelled to share it like I I wanted to say often, but there.


09;50;00;04 - 09;49;43;02

Jon

There are moments where I find myself alone in like these are like 62nd terrifying snapshots, but like I'll walk into a certain room or something in this idea just comes to my mind of how easy it would be just to pick something up, like pick one of my guns up, pull the trigger and it's done right.


09;49;43;02 - 09;49;41;29

Jon

Like, I'm free. It's over.


09;49;41;19 - 09;49;40;26

Sandy

It's really dark.


09;49;40;08 - 09;49;28;09

Jon

It's dark, but it's I don't know. I think I'm a human being, and I think that that's a human experience. And because of that, I want to speak to it because it's like, you know, I don't despair for my life.


09;49;27;29 - 09;49;10;18

Jon

I don't despair for the circumstances that my family were in. I think that on this whole hope journey I'm working to, I feel like a large part of my purpose is to inspire action towards living fully in the pursuit of fulfilling each individual's purpose, right?


09;49;10;17 - 09;48;58;27

Jon

I want to inspire that and people I come to community with when I raise my sons in that I want to inspire that. My wife, I want to see people accomplish the best versions of themselves because that's the pursuit I'm on.


09;48;58;27 - 09;48;40;06

Jon

It's given me so much joy in life to do that, and I'm in. I'm in that proceeding. I'm fighting to become a better human being. And even still, with all this positive momentum from years of sacrifice and work, I can find in a split moment that this overwhelming crushing feeling of despair literally that hits like a lightning


09;48;40;06 - 09;48;25;09

Jon

bolt. And I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like, it's literally a three. It's it's milliseconds and it could be over being done. Yeah. And you know, at this point, there's this conditioned response to that of like. This is not healthy.


09;48;24;25 - 09;48;11;23

Jon

This is not true. Walk away, and it's just as immediately as it strikes, and you're just like looking at the option to just let off the weight. Yeah, you I turn around and walk away. It's very fast now, right?


09;48;11;23 - 09;47;48;12

Jon

It's like Boom Gun. But that still happens. And I think that the reason I feel compelled to share that is I think it's normal to still have extraordinary doubt. Mm-Hmm. And how we conditioned ourselves to respond really helps to affect the trajectory of how we continue forward.


09;47;48;01 - 09;47;29;17

Sandy

Yeah. Yeah. Hope doesn't negate. Don't I don't. Yeah. I mean, so I think I think that very real experience that you're describing is part of the is part of the human experience and. So how do you establish sort of the protective factors, right?


09;47;29;09 - 09;47;07;08

Sandy

You know, first, OK, I recognize these are emotions, right? So they they're fleeting. They're going to come and go in this moment. I don't respond to react to the emotive portion. Right. How do you develop the protective factors enough to know I need people around me who can remind me, OK, this this will pass right to get


09;47;07;08 - 09;46;41;13

Sandy

through this moment. And how do we develop the protective factors enough to know that there's always something that we can believe in and have expectation of something better to come? All right. So it's it's like you have to build up reserves inside for those moments when, yeah, you don't see evidence.


09;46;39;14 - 09;46;28;19

Jon

You know, and I'm going to give another example, because that one's like such a fleeting one for me. I just want to show that that is a real human experience. I like speaking truth to that, so people don't feel insane, you know?


09;46;28;00 - 09;46;19;13

Jon

But but something I struggle with a lot more with despair is like building. These shows these conversations.


09;46;18;27 - 09;46;18;20

Sandy

Hmm.


09;46;17;21 - 09;45;57;21

Jon

I'm working on a book right now writing the book, sacrificing and investing the time into these things in the middle of the night, late at night, early in the morning, throughout the day. And the thing that I struggle with often, and I think this is true for many pursuits professionally in business and education, all these different things


09;45;57;21 - 09;45;44;12

Jon

like for what, man, if you're not at the place where you're benefiting from the success rate because you've not gotten there yet and you're in that quiet struggle phase, and even if you have the succession, you're striving to earn more victories in whatever pursuit.


09;45;44;00 - 09;45;23;20

Jon

Man, it's like, why am I doing this? And. When is where is the end and like in those moments? The struggle is real, and that's much more fleeting. It's a lot less dark, but I bet it's this real thing of like why the heck am I giving up all these hours to write this book, right?


09;45;23;11 - 09;45;09;02

Jon

Well, why am why are we doing these conversations first things for us on Saturday mornings and. And that comes back to to hope to you and to your point, you have to build up this momentum and this realization of like, well, why am I doing this right now?


09;45;08;13 - 09;44;43;11

Jon

It's because there's this shared belief. There's this belief that we can inspire action essentially right that we can we can evoke change and bring some form of positive influence to someone. Not beyond, hopefully just ourselves by having these conversations and said, OK, this will pass type of a thing, you know, let's just get to the next feeling


09;44;43;11 - 09;44;29;17

Jon

of high because I've seen that there's been benefit each step of the way. So if I can remember the benefits and be grateful for the benefits and just hold on knowing this will pass, don't make any decisions until it does.


09;44;29;15 - 09;44;27;09

Jon

Then maybe we can keep think going forward.


09;44;26;24 - 09;44;08;07

Sandy

You know, I think that the bigger question of the why becomes really important, you know, for hope, right? It's like knowing your big way in life, like, what am I here for? You know, what is it that I am to contribute to?


09;44;07;01 - 09;43;50;05

Sandy

And then your why in each pursuit, I think that regardless of what the external response is. To still be able to hold to that wide becomes really important so that you don't don't fall into despair each time when it's sort of like this is really hard.


09;43;50;05 - 09;43;30;21

Sandy

This seems like too much sacrifice for X, Y and Z. Well, if you know your wife, you know that this is something beyond what you know again what the external response might be, then it still gives you something to to push towards.


09;43;29;18 - 09;43;18;12

Jon

Yeah, I think that's fair, and one thing I was thinking about because I don't really know my why, but I find I've no clue, right? I just have to I just have an idea. Yeah, and I'm pulling on the idea.


09;43;18;12 - 09;43;01;24

Jon

But I think the questions you ask like, Well, what is my why? And how can I pursue that? I think those are hope inspiring questions in and of themselves. For me, at least, it's like, OK, that is, I have this belief, this idea that I have purpose.


09;43;00;25 - 09;42;50;29

Jon

I don't know what the heck that purpose is, but I that belief is this hope that I do actually have purpose and that this life is not just purposeless, right?


09;42;50;17 - 09;42;50;03

Sandy

That's right.


09;42;49;24 - 09;42;25;28

Jon

And because of that, I am pursuing the question of what is my purpose? Why do I care so deeply and how can I affect? Positivity for lack of a better word or how can I effect good things? Be it as I try to understand and pursue the answers to those questions.


09;42;25;06 - 09;42;07;21

Sandy

Right? Yeah. And I think there's something hopeful in the journey. So I don't I don't think that the hope comes from having the answer. And quite frankly, I think the Y can change over time. You might have a core why you might like I am on this earth to to to love people, right?


09;42;07;21 - 09;41;52;21

Sandy

And that may take different forms in your life when you're parenting. It's to love my children, you know, and at a different moment, it could. It could take a different form. But I think I think just sort of having that inkling and I do, I feel like there's there is.


09;41;51;19 - 09;41;33;16

Sandy

Adobe sort of inspired, you know, purpose in each of us, and we may not be able to name it right away, but I think he at least gives us the inkling that there's something in us and it's that gentle nudge and then we sort of continue to pull on that thread, as you've been saying.


09;41;32;28 - 09;41;18;29

Sandy

And so I find I think that the hope too is just found in that journey to know that this is a story being written and I'm I'm excited to to see that story continue to be written and unfold.


09;41;18;20 - 09;41;17;12

Jon

And to participate in it, to.


09;41;17;12 - 09;41;15;09

Sandy

Participate in it. That's exactly right.


09;41;14;22 - 09;40;55;09

Jon

Yeah, that's that's spot on because. It's, you know, hope is just the spark of life. You know, it's the spark of. There's value in living, right? Like at its really simplest courts, like I have value and living, you know?


09;40;55;01 - 09;40;43;16

Jon

And I do agree thinking about the third question, how do you inspire hope? I think you just have to stop freaking lying to yourself. It's not something that's given to you. It's not a gift you have to earn.


09;40;42;19 - 09;40;20;17

Jon

It and pursue it to realize the benefits of that spark of life, of joy, of the things that can come in living purposefully right. But I think that it's so easy. To lose hope and fall into kind of this living slumber, Regis, are going through life, you know?


09;40;19;29 - 09;40;07;19

Jon

And you know, if you just get into rhythms and you like, wake up and you're like, Where did this last year go? Where did the last five years go? And it's not because you've been living purposefully in times find which because of you've gone to sleep.


09;40;06;29 - 09;39;49;06

Jon

And that creates, I think, a lot of apathy and unhealthiness. And I think that's one of the things that ultimately is plaguing us as a people right now. Yeah. Is this? Being lured to sleep, and I won't get you too far down on that branch, but it's like.


09;39;48;08 - 09;39;33;11

Jon

The antidote is choosing to to pull on that nudge, choosing to think that whatever miserable life I'm living right now, regardless of if my circumstances are good or bad, if I'm unhappy that feeling of like, man, I can do, I can't.


09;39;33;09 - 09;39;13;20

Jon

I meant for more like, I feel like I'm lacking significant purpose in it that is despairing to me. That feeling is a positive thing. That's just being weight that we're just waiting to flip on its head to say, if I'm feeling like there's a pretend like I'm wasting the opportunity for more, that means yeah, in that in


09;39;13;20 - 09;39;09;05

Jon

that exact feeling of despair, that there is the potential for more.


09;39;09;00 - 09;39;07;07

Sandy

Yeah, there's something nagging at you.


09;39;06;24 - 09;38;50;02

Jon

Right in in it. And the reason it's disappearing is because you're ignoring the nagging trying to suffocate it and get it to go away so that you can be left alone when in reality, I think you have to embrace it head on, no matter how uncomfortable and begin to pull on the thread in whatever way is possible


09;38;49;25 - 09;38;29;23

Jon

to say, if I feel like I'm wasting my life or if I feel despair because this feels pointless, then that itself is an indication that there is the potential for more. And if I can start to ask that question, well, what is more and have the courage to lean into that even though it hurts like hell?


09;38;28;03 - 09;38;25;25

Jon

Then that journey can be started in, you know?


09;38;25;12 - 09;38;09;24

Sandy

Yeah, yeah, so I see that as living intentionally right as to how I hope. I think it's living intentionally, not ignoring those, those nudges of those next being willing to to sort of ask the next question, take the next step.


09;38;09;24 - 09;37;52;08

Sandy

Where is this leading me? Why is that? Why is this nagging me and what do I need to understand more or better? And then I think, you know, it's beyond living intentionally in our own lives to inspire hope for ourselves, but how do we inspire hope for others?


09;37;51;02 - 09;37;28;02

Sandy

I think I think we can help others identify that within themselves, right? I think as we see people's own purpose lives, how do we name it for them? How do we help to encourage them to see those things and to begin to pursue what that calling might be?


09;37;25;03 - 09;37;04;25

Jon

I love it because. one of the things that we keep, it's been a central theme of this conversation is that the second you start to embrace the journey towards the towards. Forgive me once you start to embrace hope, essentially, right?


09;37;03;15 - 09;36;47;09

Jon

This we can't help but not finish each sentence with it automatically as it goes inwards, turns back around, picks up momentum and shoots outwards. Right? It's a light. Yeah, it's a light in know and it will not be contained if you embrace the fruit of hope.


09;36;46;17 - 09;36;34;20

Jon

You can't keep it for yourself. You literally overflow with the abundance of it. And the desire to share it is this natural thing that comes out and course, right, like.


09;36;34;02 - 09;36;33;08

Sandy

Definitely.


09;36;33;04 - 09;36;20;19

Jon

As I pursue. This idea. Right. And this idea is really central to some of the things that I'm working on. I can't help but want to share it with everyone. Right?


09;36;20;04 - 09;36;18;20

Sandy

It should be contained, right?


09;36;18;14 - 09;36;08;17

Jon

It shouldn't be. It's like, this is this is this is life. It's love, it's living. It's healthy, it brings joy. It casts out darkness. It allows people to live fully.


09;36;08;05 - 09;36;07;26

Sandy

Yeah.


09;36;06;18 - 09;35;51;03

Jon

It's the it's an antidote to all sorts of pains and wrongs. Right. Yeah, you have to pour it out and that's where it's like this, this living, breathing creature that just wants to run freely and inspire action among everyone it touches.


09;35;50;04 - 09;35;28;27

Jon

And it's incredibly unifying. Yeah. You know, fear and despair. Separate. You're in despair, isolate and. Hope is the opposite of that, so looking at let's see, so I definitely think we did our best at what is hope. And you know, why is it easy to hate hope?


09;35;28;26 - 09;35;17;02

Jon

I think we we hammered through too. Yeah. And then looking at how can we inspire hope? I think we we hit that one as well.


09;35;16;16 - 09;35;15;09

Sandy

Yeah, I think so.


09;35;13;10 - 09;34;56;21

Jon

You know, as we look at as we close here, I'm just thinking the the inspiration. Comes from stilling yourself like if you're in despair, like how can you inspire hope on the most basic level if you're in despair?


09;34;55;28 - 09;34;35;03

Jon

Whatever that looks like for you, I think. And this is true for me as well. I think that the way to refocus myself on the fact that there's a positive way forward if I can just persevere, the moment is to still myself long enough to begin asking questions of myself and become more self aware.


09;34;34;22 - 09;34;18;23

Jon

Yeah. And then just. Gritting it out and staying the course until the emotional circumstances of the moment passed, and I have the strength to begin walking forward again. You know, there's this immense self-awareness that has to be built, you know?


09;34;17;10 - 09;33;59;24

Sandy

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. Yeah, I mean, I think I think we have to be real about you have to feel what you're feeling. You know, it's real. You feel despair. It's hard to get through it sometimes, right?


09;33;59;23 - 09;33;43;05

Sandy

You can acknowledge this is real. This is what I'm going through. Sometimes it's just going to be raw emotion for a bit, right? Yep. And I think you can experience raw emotion. But then being able to say, OK, how how do I use this emotion, this feeling?


09;33;41;17 - 09;33;28;13

Sandy

To then kind of move forward. Right? What is forward mean? I don't think we continue to go. I don't think it's always forward movement. I think it's sort of like we take a step forward. Sometimes we end up taking two steps back.


09;33;28;02 - 09;33;04;22

Sandy

And so it's not this linear progression necessarily, but it is still the commitment to to pursuing right. It's that still that commitment to this idea that I believe that I can move beyond this particular circumstance and that there's more.


09;32;59;28 - 09;32;58;02

Sandy

Or different? Maybe not more.


09;32;58;01 - 09;32;39;00

Jon

Yeah, I think what you're. I think. It's the choice to continue, right? It's just the choice to keep going. Period. And that is a cyclical journey. I'm excited because this ties in directly to this idea. This idea I have.


09;32;39;00 - 09;32;21;15

Jon

I'm building this concept of an identity you can choose to take on as being a way maker and to be a way maker. You have to choose to make a way. There's this concept of. Embracing. That the obstacle is the way.


09;32;21;14 - 09;32;04;16

Jon

Right? Despair. Emotions, these moments of positive like highs and lows, they're all real. And I think that there are teacher. So in the moments of like despair like that, that feeling where things are just not good, there's something to be learned in that moment.


09;32;03;26 - 09;31;44;22

Jon

If we can learn how to embrace it positively or maybe not positively, but constructively, right where it's like, OK. As I'm surviving this moment, what can I learn from it? What have I been missing that this doubt is now trying to take advantage of?


09;31;44;00 - 09;31;26;17

Jon

And how can I embrace this obstacle with this adversity to create competency to help me continue? Yeah, right. Help me to stay the course. And there's a bit of defiance in it, too, right of I'm not going to get licked by this.


09;31;25;25 - 09;31;25;14

Sandy

Yeah.


09;31;25;04 - 09;31;09;14

Jon

Yeah. Instead, I'm going to and I love this because there's a bit of a warrior spirit in. It's like, I'm going to transform this frontier of despair and depression into a landscape of opportunity in which I can create something from it.


09;31;08;17 - 09;30;50;23

Jon

So now not only am I going to survive this, but because I know. Because I'm I'm taking the time to realize how things continue. I'm going to exploit this knowing it will pass to figure out what I'm missing so I can be more fully equipped to continue, right?


09;30;50;09 - 09;30;43;04

Jon

Yeah, which is which is kind of a fun way to begin navigating it when it when a lot feels lost. But I think it's there for us.


09;30;41;27 - 09;30;28;26

Sandy

And I I agree, and I mean, I really like the direction that our conversation is taking this morning, but I'm going to just say something that's also been nagging at me through this conversation that I don't have a complete thought around yet.


09;30;28;26 - 09;30;01;20

Sandy

But I recognize we're both having this conversation is individuals who have health, for the most part. Mm-Hmm. Of resources for the most part. Who have had access? And I I just wonder. What this conversation would look like, for instance, if I was someone who's facing chronic illness where I couldn't actually say this will pass that I would


09;30;01;20 - 09;29;34;17

Sandy

understand that no, this won't pass. And then what does hope look like? Knowing my pain? My physical limitations are things that actually won't pass. Then what does hope look like in that situation? And I think that much of what we've talked about still applies in terms of, you know, a belief in the possibility of of things that


09;29;34;17 - 09;29;17;13

Sandy

can be better. But I don't know that that always holds true completely, and so I think there's this, this peace of hope. That maybe we're still exploring that, maybe there's more to this concept too, right?


09;29;16;04 - 09;29;01;05

Jon

Yeah. And I think that. That's a really good point, I'm going to pull on a string with you, there's this idea that there's this Hollywood counterfeit idea that everything is going to become sunshine and rainbows, and I think that bad is what's gnawing at you, and I think it's something that we do need to readdress.


09;29;01;05 - 09;28;40;18

Jon

I'm reminded of the conversation I had on the grit theory with the sniggers a while back, and he's on his 40th something run of chemotherapy. And he, for all intents and purposes, he has stage four cancer. So until he, you know, for all intents and purposes, until he dies, he's going to be going through this battle.


09;28;40;03 - 09;28;39;22

Sandy

Right?


09;28;39;21 - 09;28;20;27

Jon

And I think that part of this concept is endurance. Its purpose in spite, you know, it's not that everything is going to become sunshine and rainbows and utopian. It's that Barry's purpose and value, despite the difficulty, despite the obstacles, despite the hardship.


09;28;20;25 - 09;28;16;13

Jon

There's a reason to live as long as we can and to do something with it.


09;28;16;01 - 09;28;09;28

Sandy

Yeah. And for me, that's where it comes back to your life. Right? Mm hmm. You're very purposed life.


09;28;09;03 - 09;27;55;15

Jon

Well, he chose talk about embracing the obstacles. So for him, he choose to create a nonprofit called Stages that helps equip people going through terminal illness because he realized that the resources weren't there. So it's like, you know, the.


09;27;54;04 - 09;27;36;13

Jon

It's fair, right? Circumstances that aren't aside from health are temporal, at least in our society, where upward movement is possible for anyone. It's possible that there are places in the world that's not true. But in our society, that is true.


09;27;35;29 - 09;27;26;21

Jon

But health is, you know, there's this this idea that a healthy person wants 10,000 things. But a unhealthy person wants one thing.


09;27;26;08 - 09;27;25;25

Sandy

That's right.


09;27;25;24 - 09;27;12;17

Jon

Right? So I love that you brought this up, though, because it's like, well, if you just want that one thing. From talking to him, it's a great episode. It's I'll put it in the notes for people who want a reference.


09;27;12;16 - 09;26;54;15

Jon

I can't remember the number of it, but. His hope comes from living fully in spite of. Yeah, and inspiring others to do the same. You know, it's there. There's this defiance to it of. Regardless of this.


09;26;53;14 - 09;26;52;25

Sandy

Problem.


09;26;51;12 - 09;26;33;17

Jon

We're going to persevere. The illness, we're going to persevere, the chemotherapy in the days of throwing up in pain and the despair that comes with that so that on the days that we feel well, we can live in love and thrive, right, knowing that it's a cycle.


09;26;32;26 - 09;26;18;24

Jon

Weekly monthly of. On health and health of feeling terrible and feeling well, and I love that you brought this up because I do think it's a critical aspect of it. This is in a pursuit of some sunshine and rainbows land.


09;26;18;01 - 09;26;07;11

Jon

It's. How you engage with life? In spite of all of the chaos and tragedy that you will likely be afflicted by. Yes.


09;26;06;07 - 09;25;55;15

Sandy

And you're going to move in and out of both states. And for some, you're going to stay in that despair, perhaps even more than the hope. But again, it's that the pursuit.