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UnTrenched 5. What is Courage?

Updated: Nov 10, 2021



 

Today Sandy and I explore the following 3 questions:


- What is Courage?

- What does it mean to Live Courageously?

- What does Courageous Leadership look like?


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08;06;30;17 - 08;06;20;13

Jonathan

Hello and welcome to UnTrenched. Today is our fifth episode. Time is flying fast. What do you think about that five already?


08;06;19;28 - 08;06;08;22

Sandy

Can you believe it? We said, You know, we commit to four and then we reassess and determine, you know, kind of how we're going and any changes needed. And so here we are at five. So it feels like a pretty big deal.


08;06;08;01 - 08;06;00;09

Jonathan

It does. We made it past the first benchmark of assessing. Is there any value continuing for deciding?


08;06;00;08 - 08;05;59;23

Sandy

Yes.


08;05;58;18 - 08;05;41;00

Jonathan

So here the journey continues. Well, without further ado, I say we jump right in today. We had an idea in episode four as we were talking through our questions there. The concept of courage came up, and based on that, we want to pull the thread right?


08;05;40;19 - 08;05;27;19

Jonathan

So the questions we're looking at today. To get after the heart of what we want to discuss is what is courage, first of all? What does it mean to live courageously? So, you know, putting that courage into action in one's own life?


08;05;27;11 - 08;05;13;04

Jonathan

And then one step further. What is courage? Excuse me, what is courageous leadership look like? It's a kind of a three part evolution of this concept that sounds nice, but what the heck does it really mean?


08;05;12;17 - 08;05;09;25

Sandy

Actually, maybe we'll find out by the end.


08;05;07;28 - 08;05;01;04

Jonathan

Well, here's to hoping so. Yeah, how do you want to do it this morning? Who's going under the bus wheels first?


08;05;00;18 - 08;04;52;16

Sandy

Yeah, I think maybe threw you under last time. I'm not remembering, but I'm fine being thrown under. If that's if that's what you'd like to do.


08;04;52;08 - 08;04;47;00

Jonathan

Go if you want to jump in the fray. I'm more than willing to to go from there.


08;04;46;18 - 08;04;45;29

Sandy

Sounds good.


08;04;45;14 - 08;04;44;11

Jonathan

Which one are you going to start with?


08;04;43;15 - 08;04;41;22

Sandy

So the first one, I think going.


08;04;41;01 - 08;04;39;28

Jonathan

It's the easiest one.


08;04;39;05 - 08;04;20;29

Sandy

And it's not, you know, I've got honestly give it some thought and I'm like, Man, how do you actually put this into words? I mean, you have sort of concepts and an idea of what what it means, but, you know, trying to encapsulate and I think for me, a couple of things come to mind is this idea


08;04;20;29 - 08;04;02;03

Sandy

of courage is like this willingness to follow right conviction in the face of uncertain outcomes like you don't know where this is going to go. But you know that you hold a conviction about something and that it's worth pursuing it in a lot of times.


08;04;01;28 - 08;03;39;04

Sandy

You might be doing so in a context where outcomes might actually be unfavorable or there isn't a lot of support or there's actual cost to you. You're going to lose something. I mean, I think having oftentimes courage means that you're facing something where it's like, Yeah, there's a there's a high probability here that I'm lose, I'm going


08;03;39;04 - 08;03;20;24

Sandy

to lose something. And yet I'm still willing to go down that road. I think a lot of times when we think of courage, we think of someone like, you know, on the battlefield or we think of something that actually involves risking life and limb.


08;03;20;15 - 08;03;05;25

Sandy

And that's true. But I think there are also so many other circumstances where maybe it's not that dire, but the consequences can still be pretty significant. Yeah.


08;03;03;23 - 08;02;40;01

Jonathan

And some of it, you know, we're dissecting ideas. I think. You could argue against this, but for the simplification of our conversation, I think that there's a delineation between courage and bravery where courage leads to bravery. So I think that like if I look at the battlefield analogy, it takes courage to put yourself into the profession of


08;02;40;01 - 08;02;19;09

Jonathan

being one who would be sent to the battlefield. And then it takes bravery to act despite the fear once on the battlefield or in this situation. I looked at how does Google define courage because I was just curious to see what types of ideas that sparked, and it's the very simple.


08;02;19;09 - 08;01;51;11

Jonathan

I found them a little bit disappointing, but the ability to do something that frightens. Oneself and the strength in the face of pain. Or grit? And those are simple, I think, helpful definitions, but I really do feel an affinity with your definition, like how you define it, where in my mind courage is to choose to act based


08;01;51;10 - 08;01;25;11

Jonathan

on a belief. Despite the undertones, right, there's there's no guarantee of what the outcome will be. Right. And. There's great risk of loss. Yeah, right. And and I think that it's I think that it's built. I think it's so much closer to our day to day lives, it is than the battlefield thing and that, you know, that


08;01;25;10 - 08;01;10;25

Jonathan

I think transition us right into what does it mean to live courageously? Well, you know, you may be in your physical proverbial battlefields. 1% of your life, right? But what? What does that look like? Let's bring it to Earth I'm thinking of.


08;01;09;12 - 08;00;53;05

Jonathan

Your company does something you think is wrong. Are you willing to lose your livelihood? Right? You are in a situation on a sports team or, you know, I'm just trying to think of how do we bring this applicability to Earth?


08;00;52;28 - 08;00;39;20

Jonathan

So it's not like this, Heidi, you're sick of your fellow athletes are willing to take performance-enhancing drugs. That goes against your conviction. What do you do? You know, someone is speaking poorly of someone that goes against your conviction.


08;00;39;19 - 08;00;30;09

Jonathan

What do you do? What is the small? Here's a here's the here's a thought. What is the smallest, most minuscule act of cultivating courage?


08;00;28;28 - 08;00;27;23

Sandy

Taking the next step.


08;00;26;14 - 08;00;23;01


Yeah. I mean.


08;00;22;05 - 08;00;19;22

Jonathan

And how do you know? And what does it mean to live courageously?


08;00;15;25 - 09;59;58;00

Sandy

Yeah, I mean, first, I think it's sort of like forming. I think there's has to be a formulation of your values and convictions first, right? Right. I don't know that you can really act courageously if you're not standing on something.


09;59;58;00 - 09;59;36;12

Sandy

And so you have to know what that something is. What are those sort of? Principle based decisions that you are pursuing and following. So, so, yeah, to me, it's it's it's a formulation of your own value set and then a willingness to then live out those values with action.


09;59;35;06 - 09;59;16;28

Sandy

And so like, what does it look like? I mean, it's it's over a lifetime. I don't, you know, and I don't know, maybe some people, maybe some people are born courageous. Maybe I don't know. To me, it's it's more something that's cultivated over time because it does sort of tie into.


09;59;14;19 - 09;59;11;16

Sandy

Not only personhood, but the character piece.


09;59;10;11 - 09;58;46;28

Jonathan

You know what's interesting, I think that some people are born more willing to take on risk. But I really like what you just said a courage. Cannot exist without values being determined, standing for something because or without. I guess on the very simple form there can be, you know, I value living.


09;58;46;27 - 09;58;34;06

Jonathan

I don't want to die. I'm in a situation that does that. But but more like the day to day stuff, most of it's not that serious. Right? So I think I think you're absolutely right, and I think that this is something that we can bet.


09;58;33;27 - 09;58;18;16

Jonathan

I encourage myself and I think that we can all be encouraged and we need to take the time to evaluate and decide definitively what we do stand for. What things do we believe? And there's a critical point real quick on that.


09;58;18;09 - 09;58;01;15

Jonathan

We also have to give ourselves the grace to change, transform and mature those ideas over time. You know, I think one of the things that really is hurting us as a society right now is this. Idea of finality and belief that holed people into destroying themselves, right?


09;58;00;19 - 09;57;37;29

Jonathan

And. one, it's good, like I think you're the first step is at least to find what you believe today and. Act in accordance with that, don't stand on the bloody fence about it and get splinters everywhere, but then also give yourself the grace to be one who seeks to understand the picture more fully and desires to learn


09;57;37;29 - 09;57;26;00

Jonathan

from it. And then if something changes in your perspective because of those genuine pursuits, have the courage to follow what's right and not just the pride of what pigeonholed you or what stance you've taken, right?


09;57;24;11 - 09;57;06;08

Sandy

Yeah, absolutely. And I just just kind of still wrestling through this idea, and I'm still trying to get this image in my head of like courage. And I think I've most often thought of it as taking action, like it's got to be something you're pursuing, moving towards taking action.


09;57;05;17 - 09;56;41;04

Sandy

And I think like some kind of processing this a little bit more. I'm also thinking about what is the role of surrender and courage in knowing when to sort of back down, knowing when to change course, knowing when to let go, knowing when to say this might be my fight, but this isn't the particular battle.


09;56;41;04 - 09;56;30;09

Sandy

And so. Yeah, I think it's a slender piece to courage that we don't maybe give enough evidence to.


09;56;29;29 - 09;56;15;14

Jonathan

Well, you know, which I really liked, I'm going to pull on that thread because I'm like, That's a fickle way to put it, but not a strange way to put it. But when you look at, I think, the reason it's hard to determine what you believe, what you stand for, what you're willing to stand for is because


09;56;15;14 - 09;56;00;12

Jonathan

that in spite that requires you to look at yourself. And I think that to look at yourself, the reason that looking at yourself takes courage is because you're going to have to make a judgment about what parts of me are good and what parts of me suck.


09;55;59;19 - 09;55;45;06

Jonathan

And all of us have things that about us that suck. And I think part of the joy of the shoot of this life is getting to try to give life to the things that are good and valuable and to remove the things that suck, right?


09;55;44;23 - 09;55;30;24

Jonathan

And I won't beat on that drum too much. But the courage part comes and you have to surrender to the fact that there is significant parts of you that likely need adjustment work. And that's just a great, very simple start of like, Yeah, I like that.


09;55;30;24 - 09;55;14;00

Jonathan

I'm willing to do this, but I do not like that. This is part of my life who I am, you know, and if you're able to surrender the idea that it's it's OK, that there's parts of me that aren't good and I can work to adjust that, then that I think is the seed that grows into.


09;55;13;00 - 09;54;54;04

Jonathan

Maybe this is my fight, but I'm not. I have all these things tied up. I have years of life, I have tons of investment and I have this entire. All this there's this momentous train of effort is pushing towards the direction of how I'm fighting, but I'm realizing.


09;54;53;06 - 09;54;42;01

Jonathan

Wholly correct, I'm not fighting this the right way or I'm not engaged in this pursuit the right way and that or the right timing that takes some insane amount of courage to say, Am I going to change my entire life, everything?


09;54;42;01 - 09;54;35;03

Jonathan

I'm pouring my energy in to adjust to be more true to what I think is right here? That is a crazy thought.


09;54;34;27 - 09;54;32;16

Sandy

Yeah, to me, that's the hard part, actually.


09;54;30;27 - 09;54;16;29

Jonathan

You're right, because it's a little easy when you have the threat in front of you. You know, whatever it is to say, OK, I'm going to make this decision. You know, you think about it, I'm going to follow what I think is right, you do this and at that point, you're just going against the opponent, right?


09;54;16;28 - 09;54;07;11

Jonathan

The hard part, I think before we have to surrender the option of the out or in this case, to render the pursuit drawn because that's between you and the darkness, right? Just you, the war.


09;54;07;10 - 09;54;04;15

Sandy

You and you, you fight you. It's the hardest battle.


09;54;03;23 - 09;53;42;29

Jonathan

Yeah, so living courageously. So we see that there's these. What does it mean to live courageously? It's to do one's best to cultivate the self-awareness, to take the next step. In the correct direction, and we've seen now there's two phases to what is what in the heck is courage and how does that play out where there's the


09;53;42;29 - 09;53;29;13

Jonathan

one, where you're facing what you believe to be right and what you believe to be wrong and how your actions dictate? And then there's the one that self assesses your efforts in that pursuit. Mm-Hmm. And that requires surrender, which is a form of action.


09;53;29;09 - 09;53;21;28

Jonathan

But it's not for action. It's change, you know? And that can be very difficult because it may just be between you and yourself. Yeah.


09;53;20;27 - 09;53;13;01

Sandy

OK. And it can feel like it's lacking courage. Right? So then you have to reevaluate your values again and your convictions and say, Do I get it?


09;53;12;02 - 09;53;05;00

Jonathan

Or isn't that the hardest part? Because in this piece, there comes the doubt of have I erred in my steps thus far?


09;53;04;29 - 09;52;57;04

Sandy

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what has been the cost so far, right? And can I even change course given the cost?


09;52;56;10 - 09;52;41;29

Jonathan

Well, and that is that is such a fair critical question, right? Can I even change course given the cost? I think that brings to a definitive head. Well, do you have the courage to do what you believe, right, given the new data?


09;52;41;20 - 09;52;26;01

Jonathan

That's right. You know, in it kind of comes to this point. The cost is irrelevant once once you can see if it's right or wrong with your life in line with your convictions. And that is a frightening thing because it may mean leaving everything you know.


09;52;25;19 - 09;52;12;16

Jonathan

It's right. So, so here's a quote before we get to what this courageous leadership look like. Yeah. Because I think that we had a good conversation on what does it look like to live courageously and played with some of those ideas?


09;52;11;13 - 09;52;07;18

Jonathan

Why does why are we talking about courage? Why does it frickin matter?


09;52;06;01 - 09;51;46;00

Sandy

The question I was asking myself if I'm going to sleep, I'm like, Oh no, why are we talking about this? I mean, I don't have a simple answer to that. I think it's an element to sort of this bigger question we've been trying to engage with like, how do we how do we even have these intentional conversations


09;51;46;00 - 09;51;27;12

Sandy

as we're thinking about bringing about positive change, right? And I think any time you're thinking about bringing a positive change in any sphere in life, you are having to grapple with this question of courage because it's you're taking on something that there's probably some level of opposition there is.


09;51;26;20 - 09;51;05;22

Sandy

If you're bringing about change, you're confronting some barrier or some something that has something that's needing correction or something that's needing innovation or challenged, you know, so. So I think I think the courage piece is an element of this larger question that we've been pursuing.


09;51;05;21 - 09;50;58;21

Sandy

It's it's not the totality, but I think it gives a different lens into sort of this this concept.


09;50;57;07 - 09;50;42;01

Jonathan

I think that's fair. And one of the things that causes the question just kind of sprung into my mind like the so frickin what? Right? I think it's something that we're lacking and we desperately need, as you know, as a as a people, as a society and as individuals, right?


09;50;42;00 - 09;50;28;17

Jonathan

And in what I like about it is a lot of these things are so interconnected. It's kind of like a Venn diagram where all the circles lay on top of each other, like some of them at their conversations I have at center more around cultivating grit and the type of person that creates.


09;50;27;27 - 09;50;02;18

Jonathan

You become if you pursue ownership and doing the hard thing, the right thing, right courage is directly tied into the definition of grit, great courage, bravery and resolve or determination in these different conversations. Well, the reason they all overlap and the reason entrenched exists is because we realized, Hey, there's a ideology becomes a chain that binds people


09;50;01;23 - 09;49;44;23

Jonathan

so that they become enslaved to their ideas, right? And they can't break free. It just like you're in a trench, right? You're stuck in a rut. But entrenched is this idea of let's ask difficult questions and have difficult conversations in the pursuit of positive change and freedom?


09;49;44;11 - 09;49;34;25

Jonathan

And what the heck does that mean? What's having the courage to go against things like ideology which? Every flavor has every force as an equal and opposite counterforce, so it's like.


09;49;34;16 - 09;49;33;20

Sandy

Dangerous, yeah.


09;49;33;17 - 09;49;20;17

Jonathan

We are consistently in friction in this pursuit, if not with each other than with the ideas that we're grappling with. And why does courage matter? It's because, well, to be free, to live with freedom, to live life fully.


09;49;20;07 - 09;49;01;12

Jonathan

You have to have courage because you're going to live with risk if you're going to live fully. And I think it's something. We desire and want to cultivate because we want to inspire and encourage others to ask the types of questions that allow them to live more fully as well.


09;49;00;27 - 09;48;48;26

Jonathan

Yeah, and to find dignity and respect in their fellow person in ways that we didn't think it existed so that we can make this world a bit brighter, a bit better each day. Right?


09;48;48;07 - 09;48;40;00

Sandy

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think we're trying to find it in ourselves. I mean, everything we're asking, everything we're asking. This is these are questions we're asking ourselves.


09;48;38;22 - 09;48;23;22

Jonathan

And that's what I love about the concept of, Hey, this is a journey, join us. Versus we're some sort of there's like two sorts of conversations like this. There's like the the coach right on this subject matter expert on this, because this is why you should listen to me and that works really well for like woodworking and


09;48;23;12 - 09;48;11;15

Jonathan

things like that. But, you know, life coaches. I think that there is benefit to a bit of humility to say, Hey, I found some things that are working pretty well for me, but this is a journey. Will you join me?


09;48;11;12 - 09;48;00;05

Jonathan

Right. And I would not say that I nor you or life coaches, but I do think that there's something fun about having these authentic conversations and saying, Hey, join us in the journey and let's have a richer conversation for it, right?


09;47;59;13 - 09;47;58;20

Sandy

Absolutely.


09;47;57;26 - 09;47;42;28

Jonathan

As we pursue this thing that we want in ourselves and we want to inspire others to have as well. So. I feel good about, OK, why we're doing this, I think we know back down, so last question that we had for this was what in the heck does courageous leadership look like?


09;47;42;15 - 09;47;33;25

Jonathan

So now you're not just doing it for your own life, but now you're looking at leading, presumably others human beings.


09;47;33;02 - 09;47;13;15

Sandy

What's that look like? Exactly. And OK, so let me try to explore this this. This is thinking out loud here. I mean, I think I think there's there's a component to this that requires a significant amount of. Vulnerability and authenticity.


09;47;10;23 - 09;46;44;28

Sandy

Because I think any time you're trying to lead courageously, you. You're you're taking risks and you are you're sort of testing out your own ideas as you go, right? And so because you don't know the outcome and people are watching as you're making these decisions and trying to move forward, there's there's huge vulnerability in that.


09;46;44;20 - 09;46;18;12

Sandy

And so I think courageous leadership requires a humility for sure. A vulnerability to say. Yeah, I'm I'm pursuing this because of my belief or value. This is a conviction that I'm holding. I'm going to explore where this leads, but I'm going to move forward on that conviction.


09;46;15;17 - 09;45;58;18

Sandy

And I do think it comes down to this again, willingness to sort of make these principal based decisions regardless of what sort of comes your way. What are you holding to? Can you? Can you name those values? Can you name those principles?


09;45;58;02 - 09;45;41;03

Sandy

And can you move forward in and demonstrate to those who are, you know, on your team that you're leading that? That you are pursuing regardless of what what the outcome might be.


09;45;38;19 - 09;45;21;06

Jonathan

I like that because we already discussed. I have said that to me times day. That is a helpful exploration for me because when we look at courageous living, if it's if on a if on courageous living, like how does it mean to live courageously if it meet or what is acting with courage look like if it's to


09;45;21;06 - 09;45;02;00

Jonathan

make a decision based on belief or conviction? Despite the unknowns and costs, it would make sense that in leadership, if you're leading something. Utilizing courage to do so, then you wouldn't know how to do it, necessarily because.


09;45;01;21 - 09;45;01;00

Sandy

You're right.


09;45;00;23 - 09;44;42;09

Jonathan

You're you're pursuing the answer, right, you're pursuing the outcome. You don't know how to get to the outcome, but you know that based on that belief that. The thoughts that have gone into making the decisions based upon that belief that you have to go in a certain direction, right?


09;44;41;22 - 09;44;21;18

Jonathan

And what kind? What comes to my mind is Kurdish leadership courageous leadership. I see a healthy and a very unhealthy version of it, be the healthy version is really having the humility to just lead by example. Right? Mike, I have to show I'm going to be vulnerable and what I'm thinking here.


09;44;20;28 - 09;44;09;03

Jonathan

I'm going to pick up the mantle, the weight of this right and carry that weight forward. And if you want to come and help pick up the weight, I'll happily accept that. But be because we're in this new realm.


09;44;08;11 - 09;44;05;11

Jonathan

I realize this is my choice and I'm asking for this, right?


09;44;05;02 - 09;44;04;23

Sandy

So.


09;44;04;03 - 09;43;48;24

Jonathan

So I think there's that element in this idea just came to my mind of all, you have to be careful. Once you make a decision that requires courage based upon conviction, they don't allow it to become a club or right or some form of like this cheap.


09;43;48;09 - 09;43;29;13

Jonathan

I think it's counterfeit armor, and I think it's more like ideology in the toxic sense comes in of like, OK, I've made this decision and now I'm becoming. Overly aggressive in defending it, right? Because I feel the vulnerability of the choice.


09;43;27;28 - 09;43;24;21

Jonathan

And if you know what I'm saying and I mean me and help me on.


09;43;24;21 - 09;43;12;19

Sandy

That now, I mean, I think what I'm hearing from you. Maybe, you know, tell me if this is wrong, but just sort of checking your motives along the way. Yeah. Like what? What's still driving the decision you're in?


09;43;12;07 - 09;43;03;00

Sandy

Can I come back to the core value set that's driving this for you? Or has this become wrapped up in ego? And I think that's a real danger.


09;43;02;20 - 09;43;02;01

Jonathan

Or fear.


09;43;01;15 - 09;43;01;00

Sandy

Or fear.


09;43;00;15 - 09;42;42;05

Jonathan

Yeah. Or any emotion, right? Because like in the ego, when so frickin important, because I think that's the one that, especially in our society, is the biggest one to stop someone from changing their perspective. If they realize that they'll just bury the thought of, Hey, I may need to change my perspective on here now that I'm learning


09;42;42;05 - 09;42;22;15

Jonathan

more. I think ego causes that. I think the primary thing is Ego would say, No, I'm staying the course. But I think, you know, like when you get sad, you get angry. Like, it's the secondary emotion. I think fear is the secondary emotion of courage, lack of ego for courageous things.


09;42;22;15 - 09;42;07;13

Jonathan

Or maybe fear is the primary egos. The second, I'm not sure. It may depend on the person, but. Yeah. What I do think matters is. The humility piece of courageous.


09;42;06;20 - 09;42;04;15

Sandy

Absolutely. Yeah.


09;42;02;00 - 09;42;00;02

Jonathan

So to lead what we're going to say.


09;41;59;21 - 09;41;32;14

Sandy

Now is saying, which is challenging, I think so many times leaders are in such a visible position. Right. So it's like you're public facing everything you do and say is noted and. There's no hiding, right? So I think the ego can get wrapped up pretty easily because it's your image, your image is out there to be critiqued


09;41;30;06 - 09;41;12;23

Jonathan

. Yeah, and you know, one of the things because I'm thinking about, well, how can you cultivate a healthy continued pursuit once you make decisions in your own life, especially the both the small but especially the bigger ones? And then once you start to lead courageously, whether that's directly in a role or whether that's just by how you're


09;41;12;23 - 09;40;57;21

Jonathan

living in a community or for your family, how can you help to guard yourself right from the ego, from the fear of changing course, from the idea that you may have to make great sacrifice to continue in that pursuit?


09;40;57;12 - 09;40;33;28

Jonathan

And one of the ideas that comes to my mind is having difficult, intense conversations with people. You respect that different perspectives and may challenge your beliefs, and that's where you can't allow the ideology that you're. Convictions can quickly lead to to become so overpowering that you start questioning yourself, right?


09;40;33;15 - 09;40;18;01

Sandy

Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of times as we go down a decision path. You know, we we can sort of lose sight of where we've journey, and so we need people around us to help us remind us kind of where we started in the pursuit.


09;40;17;13 - 09;39;56;15

Sandy

Remind us of who we are. Remind us of the convictions and values that we hold because it can get muddied along the way. And I think a lot of times where you know what becomes challenging, you're leading in an organization and so you're acting on your conviction, but you're functioning within a larger ecosystem of an organization that


09;39;56;15 - 09;39;31;10

Sandy

has its own ethos and set of values and in balancing sort of. Holding true to your to your own principles and convictions in that can become really challenging. So I think I think courage really requires a level of discernment to to be able to say, OK, when am I speaking for me, one of my acting on behalf


09;39;31;10 - 09;39;18;00

Sandy

of those convictions that I hold? When is that out of alignment with the organizational goals? When is that in alignment? And how do I navigate that to to move actively?


09;39;16;18 - 09;39;03;15

Jonathan

What I like in it ties into the humility piece of what you're talking about is I think that if you're going to act based on conviction, if you're going to have the courage to do so. We talked about humility being important, which is another kind of obscure word, right?


09;39;03;06 - 09;38;42;02

Jonathan

I think that something that's helpful for me that just came into my mind is I'm going to assume that I will. Be wrong, often in a pursuit that's based on conviction. If I'm going to go against adversity and unknowns based upon a belief, no matter how much I've thought it through, I'm going to assume and look for


09;38;42;02 - 09;38;30;03

Jonathan

Where am I wrong here? Where am I wrong? And you know, just yesterday had a conversation with a close friend of mine, and he was pushing back on some of the rhetoric, some of the language that I was using around certain events.


09;38;29;16 - 09;38;16;29

Jonathan

And he gave me some comments that made that, as I've thought about some thoughts, write some insights on the case. I've observed this with you, observed this with you, and I realized I believe that my convictions are absolutely correctly placed.


09;38;16;16 - 09;37;54;09

Jonathan

And I believe that the decisions I'm making are replaced. Slowly, my perspective on some of the situation is changing in a manner that is not though fair is not true to how I want to be an agent for helping solve it, for how I want to be part of the equation.


09;37;53;27 - 09;37;34;00

Jonathan

And that thought has caused me to think about, OK, what sources of information, what lines of thinking am I doing that are taking me from? Wanting to be someone who inspires positive action in unity and dignity with our fellow, with our fellow neighbor.


09;37;32;09 - 09;37;17;18

Jonathan

Towards more of the we we may be at some form of a battle, think both can be true, but I don't want to be playing in that first field. Right. So it's just this incredible opportunity and fact. And as I, you know, some of it, I think, has taken that pause to really chew on the ideas.


09;37;17;04 - 09;37;03;03

Jonathan

And in some ways, I still have certain views that I think are fine. But in other ways, I think that's a good thing because it's the frog that gets thrown into the cold water. The water slowly boils until realizes it's too late and it's being boiled alive.


09;37;02;05 - 09;36;52;20

Jonathan

It's very difficult to accept a loving comment or perspective that the water may be getting hotter and you don't realize it, right? Like how hard is that?


09;36;52;12 - 09;36;38;15

Sandy

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And giving yourself opportunity to step out of your environment and from time to time to realize, Oh, OK, I've just been too steeped here for too long. Right?


09;36;37;21 - 09;36;21;17

Jonathan

Yeah. OK, so looking at all this, how can if someone's like, All right, well, that sounds miserable. I don't want to have courage because everything guys just talked about sounds hard. You're right, it is. How would you like if we were talking to our younger selves right now, right?


09;36;20;19 - 09;36;05;12

Jonathan

How would you encourage someone to cultivate? Courage so that they can experience the freedom of her right from if they have no idea how to start and they, you know. Yeah, that's the question.


09;36;04;28 - 09;35;47;28

Sandy

Yeah. I mean, I would yeah, my younger self I'd like, you know, would be willing to try, take risks, fail, you know, get used to failing early and I'm not going to say celebrate it, but in some ways celebrate it.


09;35;47;28 - 09;35;23;24

Sandy

The fact that you've failed only because you tried in trying is something to celebrate. And I think you build courage over time as you realize that, yeah, it's it's OK. And I actually learned something from that. And now I'm going to be able to apply it with greater wisdom, with greater intentionality, with greater clarity as to who


09;35;23;24 - 09;35;14;11

Sandy

I am and. Yeah. Fall on your face a few times. It's a good thing. It's a good thing.


09;35;12;20 - 09;34;58;03

Jonathan

My encouragement, I think, complements and works very well with your show, yours is be willing to try. My encouragement would be slow down enough that you can actually experience your reaction to the things around you, right, as you're formulating.


09;34;57;23 - 09;34;44;00

Jonathan

And that's really true. I think it's a lifelong formulation of what you believe is right. It's a journey, but as you're going through, if something slow down enough so that you can actually experience what your responses and then once you feel that something's wrong.


09;34;42;13 - 09;34;24;24

Jonathan

That's where I think your piece comes in. Have the courage to try and do something about it. Don't just stuff and bury that feeling. So I think if. So we want to get started, it's it's slow down. Don't ignore the feeling that something is wrong and try to do something about it.

 




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