Image by asoggetti

The Grit Theory

Search

UnTrenched 5. Education, For What?


 

Today Sandy and I explore the following 3 questions:

- What is the purpose of education? - How should we educate? - Is there danger in education? Did you find value in today’s conversation? SHARE IT!

Join The Grit Theory Community Here!

 

08;06;29;18 - 08;06;19;03

Jon

Hello and welcome to UnTrenched, where we are going to do our best to engage in genuine conversation in the pursuit of positive change. Hi Sandy, how are you today?


08;06;18;23 - 08;06;11;27

Sandy

Morning, I'm here. Good. I'm glad to have gotten through the week and ready to engage.


08;06;10;10 - 08;05;54;10

Jon

Yeah, it's always Saturday morning for us when we record. And it's kind of become a tradition to be like, Well, we're here, right? Jumping in, right? It is. We're we're here. We're awake, we have a heartbeat. And let's jump in.


08;05;54;10 - 08;05;35;00

Jon

So to today we wanted to. We've been exploring the different concepts of education, so kind of like the high use education for What Do You Do? And the three questions we were going to begin pulling on this thread with are what is the purpose of education?


08;05;34;03 - 08;05;24;03

Jon

How should we educate? And is there danger in education? And that could go a lot of directions. So here we are. Let's see what happens.


08;05;23;08 - 08;05;09;16

Sandy

Yeah. And I think I just want to emphasize that we're just beginning to pull on these threads because I think any one of these questions could be an episode. So and there's definitely more to say than we'll address today, but we'll see where the conversation leads us.


08;05;08;07 - 08;04;50;26

Jon

Frankly, each each question here could be a series in and of itself, so it'll definitely be. A start. Yeah. So with what is the purpose of education, would you? Help us pick a direction to travel and we can see what happens.


08;04;49;13 - 08;04;34;27

Sandy

I'll get it started and you feel free to jump in. So I mean, when I think about education, I guess. There are different phases or stages, I would say that there is a component of just providing some foundations, right?


08;04;34;27 - 08;04;16;08

Sandy

So we have to establish some skills. When I think about just competencies of reading to be able to sound out words and to be able to then interpret words and make meaning. So there is a there's a component of you do need some skills around computational math skills.


08;04;15;26 - 08;03;50;04

Sandy

The basics, right? What we typically refer to as reading, writing and arithmetic. I think at its most basic level, I think about the purpose of education in that way. But I think for me, education at the core, at the heart of what I genuinely think of education, it is developing the capacity to ask questions because I think


08;03;50;04 - 08;03;32;22

Sandy

of education as being different from schooling. I think of schooling as being contained within a discrete amount of time within a discrete curriculum that is sort of set within a calendar year around particular subjects. And when I think about education, it doesn't have those boundaries.


08;03;32;21 - 08;03;10;21

Sandy

Education is sort of endless and limitless. And the idea is to cultivate a sense of curiosity enough that you're just asking the next question. And to me, that's what lifelong learning looks like, right? It's I have another question in there for a reason to to pursue more information, more knowledge.


08;03;10;20 - 08;02;51;23

Sandy

And it builds what I would, I would say, constitutes your education so that that for me is at the heart of it is this is this sense of developing the capacity to ask questions and to really inspire a sense of curiosity that.


08;02;50;08 - 08;02;47;02

Sandy

Leads to the development of education.


08;02;39;29 - 08;02;23;05

Jon

I'm trying to think I don't think I've much to add, I fully agree I love the idea of pursuing a more beautiful question right in in. Planting inspire and cultivating a love for learning and questioning and curiosity and just fostering that.


08;02;23;04 - 08;02;02;00

Jon

So I think the purpose of education, I think education is more systemized, like the word, but there's the education system, right? You have schools that are institutionalized and you have universities. And all these things, like education is just some form of imparting learning, right?


08;02;01;19 - 08;01;43;29

Jon

Like, you can go apprentice as a blacksmith in your education is learning to be a blacksmith, or you can go to school and your education is going to be whatever the curriculum has been. And when I think of like the ideal purpose of a curriculum in general outside of a specified skill set, it would be to instill


08;01;43;29 - 08;01;18;19

Jon

the love of learning and then to provide a well-rounded basis of knowledge to inform that love of learning. But it ought to foster and encourage the curiosity. Not straightforward. So I really do think the ultimate purpose of an institution that educates outside of like an apprenticeship or a highly specialized skill.


08;01;17;20 - 08;00;57;25

Jon

Would primarily be. To encourage that curiosity in the learning of asking questions and then pursuing answers. And then I think this even in the specialized places. It'd be learning the fundamentals and learning how to pull on the strings of curiosity and questioning within those specialized spheres.


08;00;57;23 - 08;00;55;12

Jon

Right, you just need a different toolset to navigate those waters.


08;00;54;25 - 08;00;37;27

Sandy

Exactly. But I think you have an important element there because it is sort of this curiosity in this pursuit of knowledge. But it's also there's a functional aspect to it. So like in in the sense of an apprenticeship rate, you're learning a particular set of skills that will enable you to do something.


08;00;37;15 - 08;00;22;23

Sandy

Mm hmm. And hopefully, you know, it's it's producing something in the world, right? So it's not just the love of ideas and pursuit of more information, but that you're applying it in a way that it has a purpose of function in society.


08;00;20;19 - 08;00;16;12

Sandy

And I think that that's also a necessary aspect of education.


08;00;15;00 - 08;00;01;08

Jon

Well, and I think it's I'm having a hard time these questions actually really blend together, right? And I just want to go where it flows, and we understand that the umbrella is like, OK, what is the purpose? I think you've already looked at that.


08;00;01;08 - 09;59;46;02

Jon

And then how should we educate? What's the danger in it? I think the greatest danger that immediately comes to mind is the creation, the stifling of curiosity and questioning, thus creating close mindedness. Right? That, to me, is the scariest thing.


09;59;46;02 - 09;59;28;00

Jon

And, you know, even looking at like the specialized skills, if you want to learn to weld, right? Welding is more current than blacksmithing, right? You can. People can go get an apprenticeship, learn how to weld. And after a couple of years, be making 100,000 plus dollars a year welding and working hard.


09;59;27;17 - 09;59;07;28

Jon

You can go get in debt $160,000 plus and get a degree in theater or. Something along those lines. Right? And then come out and be making $30,000 a year. And you know, there's a lot of implicit dangers in some of how things I think have been institutionalized.


09;59;07;12 - 09;58;47;05

Jon

But like for me looking at, how should we educate? I think that. I would offer that there's an extraordinary. Responsibility on the individual. That we have allowed ourselves as a society to forget and ignore and to outsource to organizations.


09;58;46;18 - 09;58;29;01

Jon

And if we brought it back to the individual, then we would, as parents, feel a greater weight of responsibility on teaching and fostering curiosity in our children and helping to teach and coach them how to question. And as individuals would likely do the same for ourselves.


09;58;28;12 - 09;58;25;06

Jon

But I just downloaded a bunch. What do you think about all that?


09;58;24;23 - 09;58;10;26

Sandy

I mean, I think there's so many ways and I mean, we're we're pretty fortunate in in the United States to have so many different ways that we can receive education, right? I mean, there are different kinds of schools.


09;58;10;20 - 09;57;52;29

Sandy

There's home schooling, the sense of like who gets to educate and what the format of that should be, that that can be debated. And I tend to feel like it's not so much the format and delivery, right? I think that.


09;57;51;12 - 09;57;32;25

Sandy

Both are needed in the more formalized schooling with a set curriculum. That's fine. Home schooling, that's fine. Parents taking a lead in educating. That's fine, I think, and I think families have the ability to sort of decide what works best for them.


09;57;30;28 - 09;57;11;17

Sandy

But I think no matter what we receive as our curriculum, they still have to be questioners of the information that we're taking in and to be able to. Not just receive it as neutral. I don't think education has ever been neutral.


09;57;10;16 - 09;56;46;18

Sandy

And I think the moment that someone has designed a curriculum, they've they have shaped it from their perspective experience is the body of knowledge that they received previously. And there's never a complete body of knowledge, right? And so I think that we are all influenced and shaped by the particular curricula that we have received.


09;56;46;18 - 09;56;24;15

Sandy

And when I'm referring to curriculum now speaking very broadly from what is the established curriculum and schools to what we've received through the media of what we've received through institutions like churches and our families. And so regardless of where we're getting that information, can we be critical consumers of that information to ask questions and to not just


09;56;24;15 - 09;55;58;29

Sandy

accept it at face value, but to say, does this line up with how I have seen and experienced the world? And if there are if there are some areas where there seems to be incongruity asking why? And so I'm less, I think there can be a danger in education when we try to deem one curricula as sort


09;55;58;29 - 09;55;45;29

Sandy

of like, this is the truth. I think we have to recognize that learning is about being a good questioner and engaging actively regardless of what the format is.


09;55;44;05 - 09;55;25;16

Jon

Well, it has to be be nice. What is it near the beginning of wisdom is to seek more is to seek understanding, right? Like, I can't remember who said it was on, I can't remember who said it. But the idea of like the moment you realize that, you know, nothing is the moment that you're actually beginning to


09;55;25;16 - 09;55;04;23

Jon

become an expert in something. And I was listening to a conversation between, I think, was Jocko Willink and in his co-host Echo. And they were talking about jujitsu, right? They're both black belts and doing this thing. He's like, Yeah, it's funny because the more you learn, like as you go through the progression of your acquiring your belts


09;55;04;10 - 09;54;52;11

Jon

, you realize like, OK, I don't know this move. And then you try to learn that move and then like a few months goes by and I go, I don't know these three or four moves like techniques. And then a few months go by and it's like, there's thousands, I don't know.


09;54;52;05 - 09;54;26;09

Jon

And it's just like this. There's this blossoming of realizing how little we do know. And I think that. The greatest danger I see in how we are educating as a society regardless of. Like, the broad stroke means that the majority of people, I think, are receiving their their education and then stimulus in general, right, you talk about


09;54;26;09 - 09;54;04;00

Jon

church and the media and all these different things is it's it's taught as authoritative, right? And the, you know, the truth. And there's a stifling, in my opinion, and this is where I think the greatest danger is. I think as the overwhelming majority of sources come right now, there's more a stifling of questioning opposed to an inspiring


09;54;03;27 - 09;53;45;27

Jon

curiosity and testing for yourself. There's a lack of trust in. Informing and encouraging others to weigh things out and to determine the outcome based on what they're seeing and learning and experiencing. And I think that's the greater danger in.


09;53;44;18 - 09;53;23;27

Jon

The more people and people, I don't even know who the people here are, but the more we allow that to happen, the greater risk we have as of becoming. In my opinion, more closed minded and easier to take advantage of, right, because the more closed minded you are, the more you become brittle and naive and the easier


09;53;23;27 - 09;53;05;10

Jon

it is to break and manipulate you opposed to when you're the opposite, right? And you're willing to question even what you think is right and believe to test it. You know anything that's good and true. Will survive testing and come out stronger.


09;53;04;25 - 09;52;58;16

Jon

And if it's not, it ought to be removed. But that can be a painful thing also that we could be teaching.


09;52;57;19 - 09;52;36;29

Sandy

Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think I would just add to that one of the dangers that I see is is fear. I think people are fearful of what they don't know. And so if they're hearing something or receiving information that they're like, Wait a minute, this is unfamiliar or this contradicts what I learned before


09;52;36;29 - 09;52;24;14

Sandy

. Therefore, it's wrong and they want to dismiss it right away as opposed to what would it look like if I just engaged it with the same curiosity and say, OK, wait a minute, I'm not sure that this is true.


09;52;23;29 - 09;52;03;16

Sandy

But let me let me at least be curious enough to not dismiss it because it doesn't sound familiar or right to me at the outset. And so I think I think that. Think that fear is is dangerous in learning.


09;52;03;00 - 09;51;42;12

Sandy

I I I am one who tends to feel like I'll engage ideas I made at the end of my analysis. Dismiss it. It's not be useful. That's fair. I'm going to engage you and I struggle at times when it's sort of like a desire to eliminate information.


09;51;42;01 - 09;51;29;06

Sandy

Mm-Hmm. You know, because someone has determined. Yeah, this isn't this isn't information that people need to be provided with, which.


09;51;28;21 - 09;51;13;23

Jon

Yeah, go ahead. Which is just antithetical in my mind to what as a country we do, our deals are based in and it's part of the fight. It's part of the work that's still there to bring to fruition what we can become.


09;51;13;05 - 09;50;55;06

Jon

You the second, anyone, whether I agree with him or not, wants to control. A perspective or idea, it's a red flag in my mind, because whether I agree with it or not. And that's because I believe that we all have the ability.


09;50;54;00 - 09;50;40;21

Jon

Whether it's painful or not to make these assessments into learning, to judge when we have to trust each other, that even if it's messy, especially if it means some people lose power control because we're we're not in a.


09;50;39;02 - 09;50;18;18

Jon

We're not our society is meant to be free where everyone is free, right, and that is a scary thing going to your fear thing. If it is not, it does not feel safe and secure and padded and comfortable to exercise freedom of mind and thought and belief and lifestyle.


09;50;17;28 - 09;49;59;04

Jon

It doesn't, but that's OK right now. That's the beautiful joy, in my opinion, is to be alive with the risk of freedom, with the the joy of it and in education. I think that's where it starts. And I think that's where it really becomes this this focal point of.


09;49;57;19 - 09;49;38;17

Jon

I think the greatest danger is when it becomes begins to become. Weaponized and. Siloed and. Things begin to become. Wantonly demonized.


09;49;37;18 - 09;49;12;27

Sandy

Right? I agree, I completely agree. I, you know, we said we would sit, we wouldn't hold back in these conversations, too. So I mean, I think there are some real debates that are going on in our education, our educational systems now that I quite frankly, don't want to touch the third rail issues that I'm trying to stay


09;49;12;27 - 09;48;49;10

Sandy

away from. But even the example of critical race theory and the way in which I'm watching those debates unfold about what should be allowed in the curriculum, what's not allowed in the curriculum, particularly on that issue and the lack of understanding and shared a shared understanding and an actual definition of what that is.


09;48;48;22 - 09;48;27;06

Sandy

Mm-Hmm. And the efforts at large that are taking place to, you know, say, Yeah, this has to go. It's been interesting to watch. It's just been interesting to watch. And so I think within in line with my sort of philosophy that we've got to be able to grapple with ideas, whether you find them favorable or not.


09;48;26;17 - 09;48;04;28

Sandy

And we have to provide people with we have to empower people to develop the capacity to assess, to think through ideas, to find the pros and the cons, the strengths and weaknesses, the gaps, the omissions, the fallacies. And then to identify, are there threads of truth?


09;48;04;13 - 09;47;40;21

Sandy

And to even understand why? Why do we have so much conflict? How do we come to such different understandings of truth? I think that becomes important. It's part of it's part of a human experience and. I think I think the dangers are also in this sort of.


09;47;39;03 - 09;47;19;28

Sandy

We're just going to eliminate. We're going to censor it, we're going to deem something. Unworthy. Did I stump you, John?


09;47;18;29 - 09;47;02;03

Jon

No, I'm just thinking about where to go. So like looking at the critical race theory as an example, I think that there is absolutely room for honest conversation about the fact that decisions have been made in this country over the last 100 years have lasting.


09;47;01;01 - 09;46;42;18

Jon

Legislative and real world effects that we can address in ought to address. And I think that there's a lot of room for honest, genuine conversation there. Now at that level, I think that we can have critical debate and honest conversation and make a change.


09;46;41;02 - 09;46;24;21

Jon

What I hate about critical race theory, it's the same thing I hate about the Black Lives Matter movement, as it's because they've both been hijacked by people with agendas that I think pervert the core that could have genuine conversation and potential for change.


09;46;24;04 - 09;45;55;06

Jon

And I think that in that hijacking. The the the value that can come from those honest conversations on real world issues is. Is it is it's tainted, it's it's disgusting, because something that we could actually be in the position to make positive change on instead is turn, you know, is being used as tools and weapons to do


09;45;55;06 - 09;45;41;03

Jon

much more end Obsidian's things under the name of. The actual good core, it reminds me there's all these bills. There's this joke for like political bills that get passed like Save the Puppies bill. Right? Who doesn't want to say you?


09;45;40;18 - 09;45;39;20

Sandy

Right, exactly.


09;45;39;13 - 09;45;37;17

Jon

And then you look in the bill and it's all this crap.


09;45;37;15 - 09;45;36;27

Sandy

It's not about.


09;45;36;00 - 09;45;20;07

Jon

That. It's the same thing with from my observations. It's same thing with critical race theory who does not want to have an honest conversation about changing genuine problems that have been made make legislative decisions and stuff that have ramifications day from last two years?


09;45;19;01 - 09;45;06;05

Jon

Of course I do. But has I've seen it applied? I don't think it's aiming for that. It's like, here's the ideal, yes, let's do that. And that's like, OK, well, here's all this crap that's being done with it.


09;45;06;04 - 09;44;43;16

Jon

No, that's wrong. And it's antithetical to what we're talking about up here. That's incorrect. So I, you know, when those things come to mind, I don't know how to engage with something when it comes to things where I can absolutely demystify and say, let's have the honest conversations about the issue and let's look.


09;44;43;11 - 09;44;28;20

Jon

For me, I think the reason I was so quiet for a minute is. Let's walk away from critical race theory, because it's become what it was not meant to be. And let's talk about the honest conversations and what can we do about those poor decisions?


09;44;28;16 - 09;44;26;14

Jon

I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, my best.


09;44;26;02 - 09;44;13;20

Sandy

I mean. No, absolutely. And I think that's that's right. I think the question for me is, but why haven't we been able to have those honest conversations? It's not like, this is a moment in Syria where it's for the very first time.


09;44;13;20 - 09;43;57;28

Sandy

We're asking to have these comments, and many of us have been asking to have this conversation for a long time. And it has been it has been purposely omitted. And I think we have to be little more self's about that because we are we're capable, we're actually capable of identifying.


09;43;57;14 - 09;43;43;11

Sandy

These are the historical legacies and these are the these are the things that still need to be understood in order to be restored. And the fact that that hasn't taken place is also an agenda. And I think what happens is this.


09;43;40;04 - 09;43;17;25

Sandy

Sort of it's not parallel, our critique is not parallel, so it's sort of like we're going to dismantle what has become politicized and quite frankly, you're right, weaponized. Yet we haven't been critical here of the fact that for years we have neglected our responsibility to engage these conversations honestly.


09;43;17;25 - 09;43;01;24

Sandy

And what I think, what makes it so heated and emotional when we come down to these debates about what is education and what should be included is because there isn't the same level of fervor and commitment to engage with honest conversation.


09;43;01;16 - 09;42;46;19

Sandy

But yet when we get to this point of like, wait a minute, I don't like this particular version of it, so I'm going to throw away the entire idea. And yet we never then get to the core of what is essential important and what would actually bring about meaningful change.


09;42;45;24 - 09;42;33;11

Sandy

Well, I think those who have called for change in so long start to feel like this is yet another iteration of we're just not going to allow the conversation. And so we get into these wars and you see how it happens.


09;42;33;11 - 09;42;09;16

Sandy

You see how easily things can be dismantled before they have a genuine opportunity to be brought to light and to be part of the conversation. And so it's a frustrating bind that we have backed ourselves into. And I just don't know who is going to be willing to say enough's enough and really getting back to the heart


09;42;09;16 - 09;41;48;11

Sandy

of what we're talking about of like the purpose of education and I think removing some of the fears and removing some of the really. Harmful, intentional ways that we have not allowed certain stories, narratives and. Concepts, too, to really.


09;41;47;09 - 09;41;44;25

Sandy

He introduced an education in a meaningful way.


09;41;43;21 - 09;41;29;28

Jon

Yeah, and I agree with that, I think that well, for one, he's going to do that. You are. I am. We are right now. That's the entire premise of the show. The more I've thought about it, it's like, Really, this is just the excuse for us to work on this problem and set aside time to do it


09;41;29;08 - 09;41;15;09

Jon

. And how that plays out will be interesting in as yet undetermined. I have some ideas. I would love to do. I think that it would be wonderfully stress free and healthy for us to create a curriculum and start some sort of an education platform.


09;41;14;28 - 09;40;53;16

Jon

And I do have a lot of sarcasm in the stress free and healthy part, but I think that you and I. You know, based on the very premise that we want to have these conversations and UnTrenched have agreed upon the foundation that we the bedrock that we can fall back to when we may have passionate disagreement on


09;40;53;16 - 09;40;30;21

Jon

the application and that be the friction between. Those things with that foundation would allow us a unique opportunity to. Create the tools to help pursue this, you know, that I can't go and do, they can't grab a buddy who's 99% the same as me mentally and do this well, right?


09;40;30;20 - 09;40;07;27

Jon

It takes us having these dynamic differing views to create, in my opinion, an excellent curriculum that helps to inspire and Seth Scar safeguards from being from groupthink, right? Because ultimately, that's what we're talking about. It's okay. But if we can agree to these ideals and create something that helps to teach logic, mathematics, questioning, and we can provide


09;40;07;27 - 09;39;42;08

Jon

a spectrum that gives a. Appropriate attention to the wide berth of knowledge that is hopeful to see more than just one thing. Then that's one heck of a powerful tool, and that creates unity and that teaches people to make judgments based on the character and value of the situation, a person and not on the superficial.


09;39;41;28 - 09;39;28;14

Jon

And that is incredibly threatening. Going back to fear to do that is an incredible threat to a lot of what we see. And you made a comment joke, but why are we ignoring this question? one, I think it's a question for adults to be fully engaged in.


09;39;28;03 - 09;39;17;16

Jon

I don't think it's something for five year olds to be engaged in the question of why do we have these issues? I think that the education piece is different for five year olds, right? It's it's our burden to have this question.


09;39;17;15 - 09;39;02;29

Jon

It's our responsibility as adults and as citizens in this in this place where these issues are. But the reason I think they're here is twofold. one, there's a lot of corruption. And two, there's a lot of people asleep.


09;39;01;14 - 09;38;39;07

Jon

And you add sleep with a few people who are awake but willing to corrupt. And here we are for decades. You know, and that's where I get excited because when we look at this conversation for me immediately, what I want to put on the screen for is what we know at the very core.


09;38;39;06 - 09;38;23;24

Jon

We want to teach to question, right? We want to teach curiosity. We want to inspire that, protect it, safeguard it and allow a lot of stimulus to go in from varying perspectives to add to that flavor. Right. There's a few other things, I think.


09;38;22;10 - 09;38;04;21

Jon

That I'm intentionally touching, I now just for the sake of keeping this conversation concise, but for me, like the immediate, immediate next step would be what other core fundamental things would go into the pot, right? If we have if we have curiosity there and things like that, maybe that's our next conversation.


09;38;04;21 - 09;37;40;02

Sandy

But yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I think a lot of things, quite frankly, I think education should to humanize us. When I say that, I need to be able to interact with one another to be able to hear the stories of other people, I think to get a full narrative of the human experience as part of


09;37;40;02 - 09;37;29;05

Sandy

the purpose of education. And so I think in that we have to grow a capacity to listen well to to listen to that full story is part of it.

 

3 views0 comments

Recent Posts

See All