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UnTrenched 2. Are Our Freedoms in Danger?

Updated: Nov 10, 2021



 

Today Sandy and I discuss the question: Are our freedoms in danger?

Highlights include:

- Consider “whose” freedom we are discussing.

- Freedom has always been in danger.

- Freedom has always needed to be fought for.

- Vaccine mandates: Do we have the right to agency over our own bodies?

- Seeking “Resonance of Heart” where we are unable to agree.


After the show we also decided that we will be more specific and pointed, moving forward. We want to identify the core values that we have resonance of heart in and realize that engaging in intentional, direct, uncomfortable conversation is a skill we are actively developing as we create this show.


Thank you for joining us in the journey!


Like today’s conversation? SHARE IT!


Join The Grit Theory Community Here!

 

08;06;32;13 - 08;06;21;16

Jon

Hello and welcome everyone to UnTrenched. This is where we have international conversation across differences. My name is John Mayo and I'm joined with Sandy Mayo. How are you today?


08;06;20;11 - 08;06;18;01

Sandy

Doing well, good morning to be here.


08;06;17;21 - 08;06;14;24

Jon

Yeah. How bout opening was way better than last time?


08;06;14;12 - 08;06;13;27

Sandy

Smooth.


08;06;13;12 - 08;05;53;14

Jon

Smooth, yes. So we had a question that we talked about throughout the week that we want to talk to you and we're going to really jump in. But first, I think it's a good idea to remind ourselves and everyone listening what our goal is on the show and our goal in the show is to it's formed in


08;05;53;14 - 08;05;33;15

Jon

the question, right? Where can we find the common ground upon which to stand together? We are attacking the heart of a vision that we see all about us. The divisiveness in pursuit of where we have common ground and can stand united for each other's benefit and learn to better respect.


08;05;33;04 - 08;05;21;19

Jon

And through that, love one another. So that's our goal, and we hope that it's an encouragement to others. So that's kind of our plumb line as we jump into these conversations. Would you add anything to that?


08;05;20;21 - 08;05;04;17

Sandy

That's it. I mean, I would just say that this is practiced as well for us. So, you know, this isn't something we have figured out. This isn't something that we rehearse throughout the week. So we're coming forward and just saying, let's dove in and see not only where we're going to find that common ground and see some


08;05;04;17 - 08;05;01;14

Sandy

differences, but what do we learn from that? What do we take from it?


08;05;00;26 - 08;04;48;04

Jon

Yeah. In in real quick, if you'll bear with me, there's one really important contextual shift here because over the week I've had a lot of conversations about what we're doing with UnTrenched and they're like, Oh, I just I'll never work.


08;04;48;04 - 08;04;38;25

Jon

I'll never be like, I want one conversation of the many. A lot of them have been very encouraging. Like, I'll never work because no one will ever change their mind. And I was like, You have a that's where you're wrong.


08;04;38;25 - 08;04;26;18

Jon

We're not trying to change each other's minds, and we're going to answer one question together. And that is, where can we stand in unity? Because where can we stand together, lock arms and say no to what's wrong in the world, right?


08;04;26;13 - 08;04;08;10

Jon

There's a huge difference from you and me saying, OK, you have this, you have this view and all its battle it out. That's not what we're doing. We're not shooting each other. We're shooting at a problem together called the vision, lies and deceit to find where we can lock arms and push forward to a brighter future.


08;04;08;01 - 08;03;48;10

Jon

I was there is nothing but abundant hope in that trajectory, and we're not a debate show because this is not an opportunity for debate. It is an opportunity for us to debate ideas only so that we can hang on to that higher calling of being together, which is really exciting and even get fired up even talking about


08;03;48;02 - 08;03;31;07

Jon

us. Like, That's what we're here to do. It has to be done. So just just a little bit more context on that side. But yeah, so today's question that we decided we're going to go for is our freedoms in danger.


08;03;30;02 - 08;03;27;16

Jon

Are our freedoms in danger?


08;03;26;25 - 08;03;26;05

Sandy

Big topic.


08;03;25;23 - 08;03;24;15

Jon

Think you could answer that one?


08;03;23;05 - 08;03;04;18

Sandy

Yeah, I'm going to try. So, you know, when you first pose that question, I think the first thing that came out of my mouth was, who's our who we're talking about? You know, I think a lot of times when I've heard that suggestion, you know that maybe our freedoms are in danger.


08;03;04;10 - 08;02;49;11

Sandy

one of the things that always comes to mind for me is, first of all, who gets to define what our freedoms were. What are what are the assumptions that we're bringing to that statement? Has everyone ever always felt as though they've had freedoms?


08;02;48;29 - 08;02;33;15

Sandy

Right? I think I think in saying that you're losing something, there's already an embedded assumption that you believe you had it in. I don't know that everyone's coming to the table with the same set of assumptions about what freedoms we've always had.


08;02;32;03 - 08;02;18;08

Sandy

What privileges, what rights. And so I always kind of just kind of I wrestle, I wrestle with that idea that our freedoms because I don't think there has been a shared set of freedoms. Hmm.


08;02;14;04 - 08;01;52;00

Jon

OK, so there's a few questions in the perspective as well, so what? Who are who is our right and then shared set assumptions and what defines the freedoms, your freedoms? Right. I think from where I'm coming from, what defines the freedoms is the freedoms as laid out in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.


08;01;51;20 - 08;01;24;04

Jon

Right. As far as a society goes that that is the freedoms and I think. But those are God given unmanageable rights that people do not some people do not want us to have. Right. There is always a problem with people who want power and who are going to fight to not allow others to walk in this freedom


08;01;24;03 - 08;01;21;07

Jon

. It's been a fight from the second was put pen to paper.


08;01;20;14 - 08;01;18;14

Sandy

And so it's been in conflict.


08;01;17;25 - 08;01;00;04

Jon

Correct, correct. But the idea, in the ideal put forward in the bill of Rights in the Constitution, that's how I would define when we say freedom, what freedoms or how are they define? I define those, you know, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all or people, right?


08;00;59;15 - 08;00;39;15

Jon

For all Americans in this context. And that ideal. That idea is beautiful, pure and strong, but it's it's not been evenly, imperfectly applied. And that's where the work is, right? So to define it, that's that's how I would look at, OK, well, what are the freedoms?


08;00;39;01 - 08;00;30;23

Jon

I define it as based on those ideas and those foundational documents, and they are high level, I think intentionally.


08;00;30;04 - 08;00;12;21

Sandy

Yeah, yeah. And I think in principle, you and I would totally agree on that. I think I think I've always just had a fundamental understanding that that hasn't been true because it hasn't been true. I haven't walked around with assumptions about what rights I have.


08;00;12;08 - 08;00;07;24

Sandy

I think I have always seen it as what choices do I have within the limits?


08;00;07;06 - 09;59;51;08

Jon

OK, I love that because I think that's the way that that is in my mind. That is freedom, right? Security and comfort and lack of freedom is the lack of tools, right? In some situations, it's less choice. It's more having this thing.


09;59;51;02 - 09;59;31;02

Jon

So I would absolutely. I do. I do very much so agree with the fundamental principle that regardless of who you are. Freedom is a choice that you engage in every day, just like faith, just like something else. Now, whether or not you have the opportunity to exercise your freedom is a separate issue.


09;59;30;20 - 09;59;03;17

Jon

But in a situation where you are free, you have to choose to embrace the full weight and responsibility of that freedom because it is weighty. It is a responsibility and it is heavy now. Sometimes it's. Choosing to embrace that freedom is met with adversity, right in that in that and sometimes it's met with extreme adversity because there


09;59;03;16 - 09;58;48;10

Jon

are there are people, there are entities that do not want freedom to exist, right? So I agree very much so that it's a choice who it's for, right to keep digging in because you're like, Well, who's it for?


09;58;48;10 - 09;58;34;21

Jon

Right? There's an assumption on who is this for, by the way. I think of it is it's twofold. If you were born a human like there's one, there's a high deal. Then there's the place where the ideals been put forth as this is how it will be.


09;58;34;12 - 09;58;20;14

Jon

And then there's the lack of reality. The ideal is that freedom is for every human being. Right? Like looking at our face, we've been given free will to be able to choose whether or not we're going to serve our God.


09;58;20;06 - 09;58;06;11

Jon

And we can choose to and to live a life that follows that or we can choose not to. That's the fundamental human choice that's put forth on this Earth. Right. So that's that's my belief. So that's like the highest for.


09;58;06;05 - 09;57;51;27

Jon

But then when we talk about like America, freedom is for every American. Now, there has been definitive times where we've had to go through history in tremendous ways, and there's definitive work that needs to be continued to be done.


09;57;51;14 - 09;57;35;07

Jon

But it if you're in this country as an American, when you look at the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, those are written for you, for that society. But then there's the third part of it's so freaking choice on if you're going to engage in that and what you can do with that or not.


09;57;33;13 - 09;57;20;21

Jon

And that's and that's where the mantle of responsibility to choose to embrace that freedom and then to identify what needs to be done and then work to help resolve the things that need to be done.


09;57;17;13 - 09;56;55;23

Sandy

I mean, it is complicated. I mean, I still I still think that. I mean, there are there are limits on freedom. I don't I don't think everyone has the same set of freedoms. I understand that we have laid out a series of freedoms that should be granted to every American citizen.


09;56;54;08 - 09;56;33;16

Sandy

Historically, that hasn't played out. I would say currently, I think I think there are still limits. And we have reminders of those, I mean, I literally live in a house where in the housing deed, there is still language that is restrictive that indicates that someone of my race wouldn't have been allowed to live here.


09;56;33;15 - 09;56;18;02

Sandy

It was never removed. Now that's a historical document that doesn't impact my ability to actually occupy this residence at this moment. But there's no way for me to deny the fact that limits on freedom have always been a part of our history.


09;56;17;21 - 09;56;02;10

Sandy

For me, the choice in how I then think about where I want to live, right? And even in there, there's some freedom, right? Not everyone gets to live wherever they want, but my choosing to live in this community.


09;56;02;10 - 09;55;36;01

Sandy

Now I I know that there are some implications to that. This community reflects the history that was created. It was restrictive. It is evidenced in the demographics of my community. That means that I know that when I show up in this neighborhood, I may be one or the only who looks like me.


09;55;35;23 - 09;55;09;00

Sandy

There are implications to the limits on freedom, but it's my choice right now to to actually be in this neighborhood for any number of reasons. Yeah, it's it's it's just complicated, because I don't feel that. Yeah, I just I'm still trying to make that distinction between freedom and choice.


09;55;08;29 - 09;54;54;01

Sandy

I think it's very different and I think a lot of times we speak more to, we want to protect our freedoms. And we just move forward with the assumptions that are embedded there without really addressing.


09;54;52;06 - 09;54;37;02

Jon

Yeah. And I think like if we look at something with a bit more specificity as a whole as jump. More aggressively at the heart of the issue, right? Because you're absolutely right. There are issues like the why can't why would that language?


09;54;37;02 - 09;54;21;18

Jon

Why do we not adjust that language in something like a deed if it's unnecessary? I'm not familiar with the language, right? If there's no value and there's no reminder or lesson of this is where we've come from, let us not go back in it, right?


09;54;21;18 - 09;54;10;07

Jon

Which is the value of history in many ways that we may learn from it, then. We can improve upon it and build upon it the way I see it is like everything wants to kill this thing called freedom ride.


09;54;10;07 - 09;53;56;27

Jon

This ideal, everything wants to rid of it like human nature ultimately does, but it has to be safeguarded, protected and allowed to grow so that it can burn out the types of things you just described. And that's where the work of progress comes in.


09;53;56;26 - 09;53;39;02

Jon

So it's not going back in like in asking the question Are freedoms in danger? I can't help but have my mind be very much so weighted down with a lot of the things that we're seeing where as you define freedom right as being laid out for rights in the Constitution, being under significant attack.


09;53;38;16 - 09;53;19;00

Jon

And once again, I think that the attacks on being able to subjugate people to power right or as old as humankind itself. And it's just different. It's just different ways of looking at it. Totally ripping off this from you because you're like, you know, powers power.


09;53;19;00 - 09;53;17;21

Jon

It's not. It's just different.


09;53;17;21 - 09;53;16;10

Sandy

Facing new under the Sun.


09;53;15;16 - 09;53;02;27

Jon

Right? And I'm totally ripping you off on that because we were talking about this. The other like talking about some of these concepts the other day and you're like, No, because because I was talking about our freedoms are under attack in a new way.


09;53;02;24 - 09;52;49;10

Jon

Right. Like, we've not seen the types of mandates we're seeing. We're not seeing the types of things where you're losing control of your personal being. You're losing control over your personal circumstances. You're like, it's not.


09;52;48;16 - 09;52;34;15

Sandy

The same pushback on that. I'm like, I've never known a history in the United States that didn't have those kinds of restrictions. It's it's different. It's coming in a different form for me. So I just have a different orientation to the world.


09;52;33;26 - 09;52;31;02

Sandy

I never came in with assumptions about.


09;52;31;02 - 09;52;30;21

Jon

Freedom.


09;52;30;12 - 09;52;14;04

Sandy

That I mean, that is literally the foundation upon which I operate. I just never came it. So like when I hear people talking about taking away my rights to have a gun taken in my life, I just never even thought in those terms because I'm like, I never had an assumption of freedom.


09;52;12;18 - 09;51;57;07

Sandy

I have an assumption that I have choices. I don't have an assumption freedoms. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be. I'm not saying that we shouldn't live into the values and the principles of our constitution, our bill of Rights, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that that hasn't been evidence to me.


09;51;57;07 - 09;51;42;04

Sandy

And so I don't function in the world as though those things are rights that will be protected. I just don't. So what? I'm when I'm hearing other people getting angry about their rights being taken away. I don't feel the same anger.


09;51;42;03 - 09;51;23;06

Sandy

I don't feel the same sorts of impunity, it's sort of like, how am I going to choose to live within the limits of freedom that I've always understood to be part of this experience in this country? That's how I've understood life here.


09;51;21;14 - 09;51;05;20

Jon

Interesting, sir. So at the end there, I have a point I want to press into you because because I don't fully understand it, but the first part, the assumption I wouldn't say, I assume these freedoms of rights. I say I believe in these freedoms and rights and I believe that they're true and right.


09;51;05;09 - 09;50;46;02

Jon

And like especially being a soldier in the past and being a person who still takes those very seriously to protect the Constitution in the United States. I don't I assume that in one generation, we lose it all if we do not safeguard the crap out of it.


09;50;45;27 - 09;50;27;05

Jon

And if we do not very intentionally draw a line in the sand and say, you will not pass this line, this will be protected, right? Freedom is not free. It's like this, you know, cliche thing they say, but every minute of freedom we have was purchased with blood and with people who are willing to spend their lives


09;50;26;22 - 09;50;10;25

Jon

fighting against insurmountable odds, to preserve it and to expand it to encompass more people. Right, right. So so for me, it's like, Yeah, I agree with you. It's not an assumption. It is a freaking thing that we have to fight for daily or we will lose it.


09;50;10;18 - 09;49;58;03

Jon

It will be gone into in the point that I don't like the assumption versus belief. It's a belief that has to be safeguarded. It has to be protected. It has to be furthered. That's the and that's the critical part.


09;49;57;28 - 09;49;44;24

Jon

And I think I think that this is what frustrates you. And then this is where my question person comes in. It's like. It has to be furthered. And you're like, it's not being further. You're just upset because it's inconveniencing you.


09;49;44;23 - 09;49;44;02

Jon

Is that fair?


09;49;43;11 - 09;49;26;01

Sandy

It's more that freedom to me. So freedom is is the thing that we can attain when we care about everyone's freedom. So to me, it's not freedom when all of a sudden something has impacted my life, and now I recognize the infringement on freedom.


09;49;24;25 - 09;49;04;20

Sandy

The fact that there have been limits on freedoms forever is which is the issue to me. And if we're not, if we're not trying to get at the heart of. What what has been the driving force behind limits on human freedom?


09;49;04;16 - 09;48;45;02

Sandy

What has driven that mean evil, hatred, greed? I mean, right, if we're not addressing the core issues, I mean, I can talk all day long about what freedoms I feel are being taken away from me and how it's happening and which insidious ways that's occurring in our our political systems or economic systems.


09;48;44;23 - 09;48;30;14

Sandy

I can't get angry about those things all day long. But it's like, I'm sort of like, Wake up, folks. This has been happening for ever. And if we didn't care, someone else's freedoms would be taken away. Then do we actually care about freedom?


09;48;30;09 - 09;48;17;29

Sandy

I mean, do we actually care about the principle and the value of freedom? Or do we care about our own rights and comforts? That, to me, is where I just I think this conversation has has been challenging.


09;48;17;02 - 09;48;05;23

Jon

I have been loving this, so I have to go. I like it. Do we just care about our own rights and comfort and just comfort? I'd say most people just care about the comforts and they're getting by themselves to get inflamed.


09;48;05;15 - 09;47;47;20

Jon

But you said it. We got to wake up because it's the matter of like if it's not being protected holistically. I mean, I wish I. Do you remember what you said you're like if we're not looking at this for how freedom affects all of us and we're not awake to that?


09;47;46;16 - 09;47;31;07

Jon

Shut up. Right? Yeah, and that's where it's like, I fully agree. That's why this that's why I care about wanting to have these conversations. It's like, Hey, this is a you problem, a me problem, a our children problem and all of our neighbors problem.


09;47;31;00 - 09;47;09;12

Jon

And we want people to wake the fuck up and stop allowing themselves the weird, perverted comfort of pointing the finger and getting angry at the other, whatever the heck that it is over craziness, when in reality, we need to come together to protect everyone.


09;47;08;29 - 09;46;54;03

Jon

Here's freedoms, right? It's like it's a wake up call because you've been in the fight for a long time on the areas. You see, this is done and I can. You know, the problem is it's like it has to be more than just your comfort.


09;46;54;02 - 09;46;41;02

Jon

You have to be. You can't just fight for one thing for your comfort to be restored and then go back to silence. We have to. It's in my mind when I think about the infringements I see now, it's a holistic offense, right?


09;46;40;26 - 09;46;38;20

Jon

Because before.


09;46;38;10 - 09;46;37;14

Sandy

I got.


09;46;36;25 - 09;46;14;04

Jon

On on the I c, I think first, it's a holistic offense to erode the idea of American freedom that allows us the opportunity to continue the work we want to do to continue to make to bring those ideals into further fruition for everyone and good because progress has and continues to be made.


09;46;13;28 - 09;46;00;04

Jon

It's a slow, tedious, exhausting uphill fight because we're fighting human nature. But I think for like who and what it's for every American. But there's a lot of people who can profit greatly by not allowing that to continue.


09;45;59;09 - 09;45;39;10

Jon

Yeah. So when I look at it, though, because the thing I didn't understand it that much is. If they had something to do with like the show, I'm going to continue to I'm I'm trying to bring it back so I can have your clarity before I ask the question.


09;45;39;00 - 09;45;32;13

Jon

We said something along the lines of So I'm going to continue to operate. Under the restraints of freedom as I've known it.


09;45;31;28 - 09;45;12;28

Sandy

Yeah, I've always known restrictions on freedom, and so I operate from a standpoint of within those limitations, what choices do I make? So if I know I don't have all of the options that might be available? Given the options that I have, how do I make a way forward for me in a way that brings?


09;45;11;15 - 09;44;47;20

Sandy

I can't call a complete freedom, but there's there is a freedom in my heart and freedom in my mind because there's an agency in knowing that I have made a choice. I have made a choice to, to, to, you know, live in a particular way to to think about life in a particular way, to navigate the world


09;44;47;20 - 09;44;33;02

Sandy

in a particular way. I mean, one of the reasons I love education is because I'm like, If you can limit a lot of things, resources accept that it's like, you can't limit my mind. Right? I love that. I love that about learning.


09;44;30;13 - 09;44;10;05

Sandy

No, no, no. For me, too, freedom is. Is this give and take, it's relational like? What one person defines is their own freedom might actually create some hardship for someone else. And so is there a communal aspect to this?


09;44;10;05 - 09;43;55;16

Sandy

For me, there is that. So maybe I'm willing, maybe I'm willing to limit some of my own freedom if it ensures that more people have access to freedoms in a broader sense? Does that make sense?


09;43;55;05 - 09;43;34;08

Jon

So you does. Because I can't help but think I was like as I was listening, I think that. Limitations are universal, what limitations are specific, the severity of limitations are specific. It's a lot harder to exercise a lot of freedoms if you're living hand-to-mouth paychecks.


09;43;32;27 - 09;43;12;21

Jon

And the cool thing? Is like you're not going to have access to jump from A to E in the journey. Right? But you do have access should you choose to work from A to B, and that's that choice piece right now.


09;43;12;21 - 09;42;57;16

Jon

The hard thing is, and this is the insidious lie is there's a narrative that you don't have the choice to work from A to B. That whoever the US that you don't have the choice to be in that, and that's the level that it's like, where did this come from?


09;42;57;16 - 09;42;47;28

Jon

That is a complete lie. You have to work from A to B, but you can't assume that it's a jump from 80 or effort to find a path. That's where the big.


09;42;46;13 - 09;42;28;20

Sandy

Last, and I think to some extent, that light does exist, I mean, I think lies exist. So I think to some extent that that line does exist. I do think that. It is challenging, of course, when you have seen that your choices are this.


09;42;28;08 - 09;42;10;18

Sandy

So your choices are Adobe when you know that there's a range of 80, right? And if you know that your choices have been limited over time, it's you may not be arguing that there are no choices, but you may be arguing that I refuse to to continue to accept the limited choices they have.


09;42;10;18 - 09;41;56;21

Sandy

And I do think that at times that that's that's an appropriate and necessary push that right. It's not OK to just continue on saying, Yeah, I recognize I still have choice, even though, yeah, I've actually been harmed in this.


09;41;56;20 - 09;41;47;05

Sandy

I've actually been, you know, excluded from from the full range of options that should be available to me. So I think.


09;41;44;28 - 09;41;22;24

Jon

It just the way you said that, I think there's a really important thing. This whole thing that we're talking about is not without significant cost in danger. To it that this perceived the way you said it is, I can also choose not to accept the limitations that are there in the pursuit of great freedom.


09;41;22;20 - 09;41;00;13

Jon

Yes. So to me, that's the best definition that I can stand with absolutely agreements. Because because really, we're still talking about what the what our freedoms. Right? And and that to me, is it? Right? The people historically who have looked at limitations and and things that cause limitations are freedom and said, I'm not going to accept those


09;41;00;13 - 09;40;44;10

Jon

limitations. I'm going to push through those to break that. The bondage of that right, that is the fight we're talking about. That's the thing in that. I love that because it's also different from saying my comfort center attack, right?


09;40;43;15 - 09;40;25;14

Jon

There's something different to say no. There are limitations and there are some new limitations. And then there are some limitations. But we're we're I'm frustrated is I've lived my life pushing through those limitations and denying them to obtain higher freedom and try to make that accessible to others, right?


09;40;24;28 - 09;40;03;05

Jon

And I think that's the important distinction, because it's not a matter of comfort of you've not been comfortable for as long as I've known you've been pushing through. Limitation of the limitation battle after battle to that higher ideal, that in my mind, is the beautiful sight of this and that is the freedom in my mind that is


09;40;03;01 - 09;39;45;20

Jon

under attack right now. That is the ability for you and I to on the different issues that are placed in our hearts, heavily push forward to say this is wrong. We're going to write this. We're going to do everything we can to help have this corrective and encourage each other and support each other in the fights where


09;39;45;20 - 09;39;25;13

Jon

we agree we can help each other. That's the freedom that I see is under attack. It's not the freedom to drink a lot. It's not the freedom to own something. It's the it's the ultimate freedom to continue to change the fabric of society towards something that is more diverse and broadly accepted and beneficial for all of us


09;39;24;06 - 09;39;03;11

Jon

. It's that growth that's under attack, because that growth and that evolution requires these things, this ideal to it's its lifeblood. And if you cut that off, it goes away. And we're put into a completely different equation where we can't even fathom being able to talk about making this progress.


09;39;02;25 - 09;38;40;08

Jon

That's the scary thing to me like that. That to me is when I talk about fear, it's like. We're not going to be able to engage in the fight to continue making things better. If we lose the idea and ideal of freedom, as laid out as we've described in this conversation, the fight's gone, it's it's complete.


09;38;40;08 - 09;38;32;01

Jon

We are powerless at that point. And that's where for me, the concern comes in seeing the what miss with some of the things.


09;38;31;15 - 09;38;12;22

Sandy

I don't know that. I don't know that I fully understand because I don't know what is different now that would lead you to say that we would even lose the ability to fight for freedoms. Like what? What is different now that will limit our ability to fight for freedoms to?


09;38;10;25 - 09;37;51;28

Jon

I think right now we have to show what limits our ability to fight for freedom. We can always I would say it limits the effectiveness with which we can fight for freedom, we because there are societies in which those who fight for freedom are killed.


09;37;50;17 - 09;37;48;26

Jon

There societies in which that happens.


09;37;48;15 - 09;37;44;22

Sandy

Well, I think that's always happened, that's happened here, you're not saying. Yeah.


09;37;44;14 - 09;37;28;06

Jon

Yeah, it's not new. Yeah, but it's something that has to be killed, right? The thing is, we move away from things that kill people who fight for freedom by fighting for freedom and winning, right? We, we get we get rid of that.


09;37;28;02 - 09;37;24;15

Jon

More and more, not that it's gone, but we fight to get rid of it.


09;37;24;10 - 09;37;10;24

Sandy

I've just never known a freedom to be given what has been withheld. So, I mean, it has always come at a cost of life. There's never been a time where freedom was just sort of like handed over, like, Oh, I just realized we were withholding this freedom.


09;37;09;20 - 09;37;08;09

Sandy

You know, it is, I mean.


09;37;07;28 - 09;36;48;09

Jon

It is. You're correct. So what I'm thinking specific, but I can't give back, and so I'm not going to try. So when I look at the mandates to when I look at a mandate to insure something in my body, and I see that as a tool of segregation, divisiveness and control, I 100% I.


09;36;48;05 - 09;36;30;06

Jon

I fact checked myself before looking at it because I was curious if that is true, but it's divisive attacks tax to get rid of the quote unquote undesirables that from whoever sees that right. I think it's wrong. Like it's wrong to say to someone.


09;36;28;29 - 09;36;24;16

Jon

You no longer have agency over your body on whether or not this thing is going to be injected into it.


09;36;24;05 - 09;36;06;02

Sandy

I think that's exactly I mean, I think I think with this exactly the language right there, I would take and say the the fact that you don't have agency over your body is the crux of the issue, and there is so much precedent for that that you don't have agency over your body.


09;36;05;27 - 09;36;04;01

Sandy

But let's just repeat those words again.


09;36;04;00 - 09;36;03;20

Jon

Well.


09;36;03;10 - 09;35;58;13

Sandy

How many examples can we find in history of you don't have agency over?


09;35;58;13 - 09;35;56;23

Jon

Correct? Yeah.


09;35;56;14 - 09;35;34;19

Sandy

That that was the issue. That is the core. That is that is something we have practiced and we are practiced in it. And I don't want to lose sight and pretend like, you know, for those who are saying, this is another example of, you know, we're going to just take away that ability for someone to have agency


09;35;34;19 - 09;35;21;17

Sandy

over there. But not new, not new for sterilizations. Tuskegee experiment lynchings. There may be examples of you don't have agency of your body that are rampant.


09;35;21;05 - 09;35;06;20

Jon

The word agreement, we're in agreement about that. And that's where it's like as the evil presents itself, we have to kill them. We have to kill and then hit right. We have to kill it because I saw this is the statistics that I did my best to fact check.


09;35;06;16 - 09;34;46;06

Jon

But somewhere between 60 and 70% of the African-American population has chosen not to get the vaccine thus far. Depending on where across the spectrum from what, I could find two different sources. It's like, Well, if you continue to push the nineties and you continue to push the restrictions that you're making on this vaccine, and I do not


09;34;46;06 - 09;34;30;18

Jon

want to get into the efficacy of the vaccine or any of that right now because I'm talking about the attack on freedom, specifically the mandates. Who's that hurting if if 60, 70% of that population is going to be affected by that, it's the same thing again.


09;34;30;10 - 09;34;19;26

Jon

But now it's also affecting the other people who are going to say that the mandate is wrong, whether or not you have the vaccine, the mandate and the implications of what you're forcing where you can't get an organ transplant.


09;34;19;25 - 09;34;01;11

Jon

Now, if you don't have a vaccine. And I understand the arguments like, oh, your chance of surviving lower from it. OK, well, these things right? Or just continuing to divide the industry, inflame the same issue of you don't have agency over your body.


09;34;01;06 - 09;33;50;26

Jon

And now I can put you over here as the other and deny you more and more and push you further and further out. It's the new attacks on the same issue.


09;33;50;06 - 09;33;33;22

Sandy

It's in, and I think we're I think this there's a reckoning, right? There needs to be a reckoning. And for me, it's always I always believe, like, do I want to go back and relive history, repeat history, rehash history just for the sake of rehashing history?


09;33;33;22 - 09;33;23;27

Sandy

No, but I think it is vitally important for us to find the beginning of this thread. And you have to if you want to disentangle something, I think you have to kind of get to the beginning of it.


09;33;23;11 - 09;32;59;25

Sandy

And I think we established long ago a precedent for we're going to ensure that you don't have agency over your body. We established that firmly practiced well-rehearsed policy and. Yeah. So now now if we want to if we want to grapple with something, I would say, let's not grapple with that.


09;32;59;19 - 09;32;40;15

Sandy

No vaccine. Let's grapple with on principle, what do we believe about agency over our own bodies? Let's grapple to to cut to the heart of the issue because I think things become very divisive. We don't have access to I think data has been skewed in every direction I think you can find.


09;32;40;05 - 09;32;20;23

Sandy

I mean, you can find studies and data to support whatever argument you want to make. Things have become politicized in ways that are not helpful. And so I always want to come back to sort of what are the principles, values, foundations that we can return to just say, you know what?


09;32;20;23 - 09;32;07;10

Sandy

We're going to see things a lot of different ways. We're going to have different viewpoints. We're going to have different opinions. But what are the core values that want to come to? And really, those are the things I want to fight for.


09;32;07;10 - 09;31;56;23

Sandy

I want to fight for those core principles, and I and I want to go back to saying, how did we get here? How did we get here? There was a door opened and I think we need to revisit that.


09;31;56;20 - 09;31;52;20

Jon

Really, I don't think that there is a door open. I don't think there's ever been a door. I think it's been an opening.


09;31;52;09 - 09;31;49;07

Sandy

I think the opening gaping, it's huge.


09;31;49;04 - 09;31;31;26

Jon

I mean, if it is as old as humankind, it's for itself. You're right. It is as old as humankind and human nature. I mean, we see it across the world still in full crazy, like in full randomness. The desire to fully enslave for sex really is a active.


09;31;30;20 - 09;31;16;08

Jon

Moneymaking industry in large parts of the world still today. And so you're absolutely right, and I love how you said, let's grapple with the age with the right to agency of our own bodies. Let's get straight to the heart of it.


09;31;15;27 - 09;31;01;01

Jon

And I think that is really what we're pursuing here, because when I look at this conversation, you ask the question, Are freedoms a danger in your account? I would have to start with defining who is ours, and I was like, Let's stop and wait till we're sitting in front of camera so we can capture it.


09;31;00;26 - 09;30;46;24

Jon

I was like, I've been like a little. I've been excited and nervous and anxious for this conversation. Go and let God help me not to lose our mission in the conversation over minutia, because what I want is what you said.


09;30;46;19 - 09;30;33;22

Jon

I stand in such solidarity with that. It is our every fiber of my being screams. Yes, that we need to define the core heart issues that we can agree on and stand on those. And I love the way you define the heart of the issue.


09;30;33;12 - 09;30;19;27

Jon

Let's grapple with the right to agency over our own bodies. That is that freedom that we're seeing. We've seen 100 different representations of. We see so many great ones now. But you know, screw that. Let's attack the man.


09;30;19;17 - 09;30;09;29

Jon

Like, if we're going to address the mandate, let's dig deeper and say, Hey, there is no control, except for that over the agency of our own bodies. That is something I fully and passionately in agreement with.


09;30;08;23 - 09;29;51;14

Sandy

And we can open up a whole series of other conversations. Get them off of of that because agency of our own bodies. And then and then when we think again, I think that the piece that's been missing from this conversation is a communal aspect because it's like I can have agency over my own body.


09;29;50;25 - 09;29;33;00

Sandy

But then do I also need to consider impact to others? And people have different views on this, right? I really think that we're again, we're not trying to come to agreement. I mean, that's not our goal here. But I do think that there are complexities and nuances to this.


09;29;33;00 - 09;29;13;07

Sandy

But I love with the direction that this conversation has taken. And just, you know, I think talking through those those underlying assumptions, who's the we? And really cutting to the heart of we've seen precedent for this. And so what do we need to return to as core and essential in really ensuring that we can?


09;29;09;27 - 09;29;07;07

Sandy

Work towards freedom that has never been available.


09;29;05;10 - 09;28;52;15

Jon

I love it. And, you know, I just said you just kind of jumped in my mind. It's from some of the other projects I'm working on, but looking at this because we're wrapping up, we work it down where we agree.


09;28;51;06 - 09;28;30;14

Jon

And what I'm thinking is like, OK, if someone is sitting there and say, OK, this is good, how can I engage in conversations like this? You know, how can we make what we're trying to do here, right where we're pursuing the core, we're pursuing the core beliefs that we can agree upon, the ideals that we agree upon


09;28;30;07 - 09;28;15;07

Jon

, that have been shrouded in so much history and different language, different linguistics, different connotation, different meanings. We are piercing through all of that noise to find the core heart and be like, Oh my goodness, we fully agree on the heart of this.


09;28;14;24 - 09;28;12;06

Jon

Exactly that. That's what we're doing here.


09;28;10;17 - 09;27;57;24

Sandy

So, yeah, there's a phrase that I've heard that I really like, and it's resonance of heart. We're not going to find agreement, but can we find residence of heart? And to me, that's really it. That's the best I can ask for.


09;27;57;02 - 09;27;56;29

Jon

In.


09;27;56;22 - 09;27;55;27

Sandy

Relationships.


09;27;55;15 - 09;27;36;05

Jon

I love that we're we're not going to find agreement. Can we find resonance at heart? I love that. Is there a way in your mind that we can make this actionable so that someone who doesn't have to, you know, so that if someone wants to through their day to day progress towards finding the residents of heart with


09;27;36;05 - 09;27;25;04

Jon

others, right for finding, where can we agree? Is there anything that comes to your mind based on today's conversations specifically that can help them action that you know, to day tomorrow and similar?


09;27;23;25 - 09;26;58;20

Sandy

Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's this it's having conversations. It's hearing people's stories, understanding their perspective. It is diversifying the news sources that you have. It is in being willing to suspend your own, your own perspective for a moment to just listen, you know, and to see, is there something?


09;26;58;20 - 09;26;46;03

Sandy

Is there something that I need to hear that will help bridge, you know, at least the gap in our understanding. So it's I think it's that practicing of of a different kind of listening.


09;26;44;06 - 09;26;23;24

Jon

To listening to what you just said. If I had to summarize it, I'm thinking of like, go and have a conversation with someone you typically wouldn't. And in the forefront of your mind, seek to understand before you want to be understood to ask questions and seek to really try to understand.


09;26;22;26 - 09;26;08;18

Sandy

Yes, suspend judgment. Go, go in for the purpose of curiosity, can you can you can you maintain curiosity long enough to be able to just hear the other person's pe