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38. Pursuing True North _ Kyle Lawson



 

Today I sit down with Kyle Lawson, an Army veteran, businessman, and old friend. As we push in, we find our “common ground” which is the desire to “shift culture to focus on how to solve problems and create positive change”.


We also defined the following 5 actions that anyone can use to help cultivate grit and bring about the positivity we all want and need.


1. Pursue self-awareness.

2. Take personal ownership.

3. Select your heroes carefully.

4. Seek to understand and realize it’s a journey.

5. Be careful who you engage with.


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08;06;31;00 - 08;06;12;27

Jon

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Grit Theory. Today, I'm joined by Kyle Lawson, and this is a fun one for me. Colin, I served together many moons ago back when we were baby faced and they have beards. The entire seeing world is now much happier because we're both bearded except for my wife.


08;06;12;27 - 08;06;03;10

Jon

But that's different. And we just get to have the opportunity, have a fun conversation today. And kick things off. So how are you doing, man?


08;06;02;01 - 08;05;40;04

Kyle

I'm doing pretty good as we talked about a little bit before, I've changed careers like three or four times and since getting out, and all of it's been rewarding and different, which has been really cool. You know, I went from, you know, instructing at a university to run in the industrial line of business and a solid waste


08;05;40;04 - 08;05;32;05

Kyle

company. And now I do energy specialization for a firm. So I mean, everything is just been a wild ride.


08;05;30;04 - 08;05;17;28

Jon

That's one of the fun things. When you exit the service, it's all about marketability. But we learn so many skills that can be applied to so, such a diverse array of industries. That's really a pick your poison type of thing.


08;05;17;28 - 08;05;07;17

Jon

But I understand that jumping around in. Good luck on this new venture for you, right, I'm looking at a transition period myself here, so we'll see how that plays out.


08;05;07;04 - 08;04;50;21

Kyle

I mean, it's wild and scary, but it's also exciting to see, you know, all the fruits and labors and things that you've gathered from previous experiences then become valuable somewhere else. They don't always fit in as a direct one for one, but generally anything that made you successful in one place is going to make you successful somewhere


08;04;50;21 - 08;04;37;12

Kyle

else because it's more about the you know who you are as you are as a person and your work ethic and what you bring to the table than it is about. You know what your piece of paper from school says, unless you're, you know, in something medical or very nation specific.


08;04;35;23 - 08;04;20;27

Jon

Yes, I'm very like highly specialized skill craft, but well, let's take a look, so you and I have not necessarily kept up over the years since we've departed in the first time. I think we really talked to site of maybe some drive by text was a couple of weeks ago.


08;04;20;06 - 08;04;06;24

Jon

I I'd posted something on Instagram. I'd shared a story and in like you sent out this thoughtful message disagreeing with what I post on the story. And I like I sat there is like four in the morning. When I first read it, I gave myself this hour, cool off.


08;04;06;24 - 08;03;55;04

Jon

It's like I need to at least have had an hour of being awake before I respond to anything ever because I'm not all there and thought it responded back on what I agreed with from it. And then just kind of time went on.


08;03;55;04 - 08;03;42;23

Jon

And that was an earlier episode, just for context, because we've talked about on the show the no jab, no job with five kids like the sign where the sky is looking down and you're the person who actually message music.


08;03;42;23 - 08;03;31;00

Jon

That's a sympathy post. I don't like that part of this, and you know, freedom comes to have freedom of choice comes with freedom of consequences. You can't you can't separate those two things. And we didn't talk for a bit.


08;03;31;00 - 08;03;19;22

Jon

You reached out after hearing that episode and were like, Hey, man, I just want to make sure you didn't perceive this a certain way. And we jumped into a conversation from there that spanned about an hour where we got to.


08;03;19;13 - 08;03;03;06

Jon

It was just this refreshing opportunity of civil discourse where we explored some of the topics and sought to better understand one another. And that was really good. So I was curious with that kind of backdrop in which in from there we're like, Hey, let's talk again, and that's why we're here today.


08;03;02;24 - 08;02;45;00

Jon

So having shared that context, aside from just wanting to stir some cane like why in the world did you reach out on that one after all those years? Like what inspired that? And in why do you think we keep finding joy in there pushing into these types of conversations?


08;02;43;11 - 08;02;23;27

Kyle

This is just a personal anecdote for me and why I do that, I have found that over the years it is very difficult to find people to have civil discourse with where it doesn't, you know, basically to relegate or deteriorate into a, you know, a few of natures or a if you believe this, you have to believe


08;02;23;27 - 08;02;06;07

Kyle

this kind of mentality. And the problem with that is that not everything from a point of view is mutually exclusive. Not everything is if I believe, you know, segment a, I have to believe Segment B, you know, in the same way that you know, the world is in black and white, and neither are people's thoughts.


08;02;05;20 - 08;01;48;11

Kyle

And the reality is, is that I've realized as I've grown older and my circle has shrunk on who I decide to spend my time with. Everyone only has so much bandwidth every day to give. I only make those type of disagreements, thoughtful comments to people who I think will receive them appropriately and not immediately turn into a


08;01;48;11 - 08;01;34;03

Kyle

scenario where they're, you know, basically ship hosting and being crappy to one another. And I liken that to when I remembered all the conversations we had in the service. We were able to do things like that, and there's great value in that.


08;01;34;03 - 08;01;21;19

Kyle

I believe not just as a society, but I mean, even from a friendship perspective, because there's a lot of people that will never will never have the emotional and mental capacity and immaturity to be able to do that and grow.


08;01;21;05 - 08;01;11;28

Kyle

And one of the things I truly believe as a person is that to grow as a society and just to better yourself as a person is, you need to be able to do that.


08;01;09;26 - 08;00;52;17

Jon

I completely agree with that. There's that old cliche quote, if like if you want to change the world, start by changing yourself type of thing, right? And there's a bunch of variations of that idea from different sources. But it really does start with you and your personal relationship.


08;00;52;17 - 08;00;36;11

Jon

So like so having served together, we were essentially, you know, coworkers. So like in the co-working environment, in the friends circles and how like you as an individual and you'll interact with the world, what you're describing is just taking the time to.


08;00;35;07 - 08;00;17;28

Jon

Engage in that meaningfully and be OK. Not. Being right all the time and in like just pursuing more than just like bludgeoning people and being right, right, like having thoughtful conversation and trying to produce solutions together, you know?


08;00;16;29 - 08;00;07;28

Jon

Is what I'm hearing in the in the course of those conversations and what I recall from what we talked about, because any time we disagreed in the past or recently, it's been like, Hey, why are you thinking this and doing it this way?


08;00;07;25 - 08;00;03;27

Jon

It's not making sense to me. You know, it kind of it's born of that question.


08;00;03;01 - 09;59;47;08

Kyle

Well, and that's and that's a lot of what it comes down to would be the weird like, how do I want to wear this appropriately? The path a lot of people's minds take is that if I'm right, I feel vindicated.


09;59;47;07 - 09;59;32;22

Kyle

You know, this is me and one of the basest sentiments that has served society well for a lot of years but is against us now is that sense of feeling. Tribe, there's actually a book called Tribe, written by a guy named Sebastian.


09;59;32;22 - 09;59;19;22

Kyle

I can't remember his last name. It was an incredible book. I read it when I got out of the service, and it kind of talks about, you know, how that how that, you know, you search for that kind of like brotherhood, that kind of like team mentality from other areas, and it's harder to find.


09;59;19;09 - 09;59;06;14

Kyle

But what a lot of people do in this context of it is my tribe is what I believe. My tribe is my political party. My tribe is my, I mean, insert whatever you want, my sports team, my anything.


09;59;06;02 - 09;58;52;17

Kyle

And if you are in my tribe, we agree on all thoughts. And then if I win and my tribe wins, we all win. But the problem is, is that that creates a very me versus you mentality, which is acceptable.


09;58;52;17 - 09;58;36;19

Kyle

And, you know, war sport certain mentalities where you want to define a winner or loser. But as a society as a whole, all that does is divide people to where you don't find those solid good nuggets of where you cross that threshold together to where you find that commonality.


09;58;36;04 - 09;58;15;20

Kyle

You know, in the same way that I think I had mentioned it in our previous conversation, um. I feel one of the biggest detractors for those who make policy and make overarching decisions for everybody is it's they want their tribe, their team to win, not with the underlying core value of what makes society better, what makes Americans


09;58;15;20 - 09;57;59;06

Kyle

better for the purpose of the country that we're in or what makes whatever thing better. You know, not having that underlying commonality of we're doing this for the betterment of everyone is what really deteriorates from that because then it's you want your side to win so bad, you're hurting the other side to do so.


09;57;58;15 - 09;57;54;06

Kyle

But that's undermining the fact that the other side is also overall in the same team as you.


09;57;53;00 - 09;57;39;02

Jon

Yes. The other side is us, you know, and that's the thing that's scary about the tribalism is when you kill. I don't think as humans we can remove the fact that we're going to be parts of different groups, right?


09;57;39;02 - 09;57;28;06

Jon

Like we're it's just part of human nature. You know, you had your family unit and then you're going to have like a tribe and you going to have your beliefs tribe, whether that's religion or different things. So I think that's all good and well.


09;57;28;06 - 09;57;13;18

Jon

But what becomes dangerous is when you don't. Give credence to any longer to the overarching what what large scale group am I a part of that I'm fighting to have with? Right. And that's what I'm hearing you talk about.


09;57;13;18 - 09;56;51;01

Jon

It's like we are all Americans. So I think America is the tribe and that has been forgotten now. We're all part of different subgroups. But at the end of the day, what we do, in my opinion ought to be subjugated to we are fighting for survival as Americans holistically, regardless of if you're right, left agnostic, religious, whatever


09;56;51;01 - 09;56;34;18

Jon

it may, you know, black, white, whatever it may be, whatever things define you as an individual, those don't take an unhealthy proportion to the point where now you're fighting to have that win out over our entire population as the American tribe.


09;56;33;27 - 09;56;20;04

Jon

Right? And that's one of the things that when you and I are seeing really the government mandates around the vaccines and then the conversation went from that to the vaccine itself, and we just were going back and forth.


09;56;19;27 - 09;56;02;12

Jon

But the thing that I remember? And please correct me if I misremembering that we agreed upon was like, was the fact that we are on the same team ultimately right? We want to make sure that we best care for one another and for those who need cared for while also assuring the maximum freedoms possible.


09;56;01;24 - 09;55;41;09

Jon

And that created an appreciation of beauty for difference, right? Difference of perspectives, different beliefs, different of all these things that are held together by the desire to respect and to protect the other person's rights, freedom and health. So, you know, that's like that core fundamental thing that I want to, at least for as a on a personal


09;55;41;09 - 09;55;29;07

Jon

level, I want to bring that back. I want to speak to speak wife to it. I want to be an example of it's the best I can and I know also often, but I want to do the best I can to say, Hey, I'm OK if you think I'm stupid and wrong on.


09;55;28;08 - 09;55;11;15

Jon

And I disagree with what you think on this. Let's let's find where we agree, let's identify and define very clearly where we disagree. And then let's ask, so what does this impact anything or not? And if it does, what can we do to create a solution that we can both shake hands on?


09;55;11;10 - 09;54;59;22

Jon

Right? I think I think that's really the premise of this whole country and it. That's fallen to the wayside a bit, which is why it's so refreshing to find some of these won't engage in it, but I think we can teach that again.


09;54;59;18 - 09;54;59;04

Jon

What do you think?


09;54;58;20 - 09;54;42;29

Kyle

Absolutely. And one thing I want to say on that, that's slightly off topic, but still relevant. Relevant is being able to find that compromise and do those things is what leads to healthy relationships, whether it be healthy friendships, healthy marriages, healthy anything.


09;54;42;18 - 09;54;23;21

Kyle

Because to always think that you're the smartest person in the room that knows everything usually means either a if that's true, you're in the wrong room or B, if that's not true, which is probably what it really is that once again, you come back to that community aspect and the pieces of conversation that really struck out to


09;54;23;21 - 09;54;06;12

Kyle

me. The one thing that we 100% always, always, always agreed on is the freedom piece. And that was the core of my first message that you brought up, which is, you know, freedom of responsibility is not freedom of consequence or, excuse me, freedom or consequences, not freedom of responsibility, which for people who either haven't heard that or


09;54;06;12 - 09;53;50;29

Kyle

it's not as common stance. What that really breaks down to is, is that you are free to make whatever decision you want in life, whether it's you know where you're getting gas to it to is anything as divisive as you know where you stand on a politically charged issue like the vaccine.


09;53;50;09 - 09;53;37;24

Kyle

However, the decision that you are making with that comes with consequences, be them good or bad. And the problem is that a lot of people hear the word consequence and they think negative connotation. But the consequence of working hard is also being successful.


09;53;37;06 - 09;53;21;10

Kyle

The consequence of, you know, being being healthy and doing things to stay healthy means you probably live longer and get to do more things with your family and your friends. Consequences go both ways. Um, but the core of that was just the freedom piece, because I've always been a big believer of, you know, when you.


09;53;20;04 - 09;53;07;28

Kyle

You know, our born as a human being, whether you're religious or not, you are born with the freedom to make any any decision that you want in the entire world and to have a freedom taken away from you.


09;53;07;03 - 09;52;51;03

Kyle

You tread into a dangerous territory where it becomes, what are you weighing your freedom against? You know, all the way is back into when you know, even the war in the Middle East started where you win your freedom versus public safety, safety, for example.


09;52;50;23 - 09;52;40;05

Kyle

And that is the same kind of scenario with the vaccine. You know, how do you rack and stack that? Which thing makes it appropriate in which thing doesn't? And no one's going to ever share a 100% belief on that.


09;52;39;28 - 09;52;36;11

Kyle

So where do you find that crossing line to make both parties kind of meet halfway?


09;52;33;13 - 09;52;23;15

Jon

And that is really where the work is. one of the things that you start to see is a lot of advocacy or at least a lot of things that I'm starting to see is a lot of advocacy for we're going slow, right?


09;52;23;09 - 09;52;03;19

Jon

We want to make changes. Make progress, you know, faster. A lot of these things, especially when you look on the large scale, what's crazy about them is they're really from the tribe who has the progress, right? Unless they're approached, like unless they're intentionally couched in the idea of how do we collectively win as a as a, you


09;52;03;19 - 09;51;45;09

Jon

know, as a people, as a group? So. And having taken into account. I'm going I'm going to be honest, that thought just left me, so I'm going to go off another one and I'll come back. But as everyone's fighting for progress, there go came back who as a painful few seconds span.


09;51;43;12 - 09;51;42;12

Kyle

People now know.


09;51;41;21 - 09;51;23;22

Jon

Oh my goodness, it completely left us both so, so terrible. But people want efficiency now, right? People want convenience. People want comfort at the cost of allowing the hard work to happen. And that's where, like when you when you talk about these policy level decisions, these huge decisions, I don't, I think speed kills.


09;51;23;12 - 09;51;02;20

Jon

I think it's OK to have their. Efficient, more effective system with appropriate checks and balances to safeguard freedoms over time and to apply best practices as we move forward and to work towards healthy compromise. Right. And that's one of the things that is so encouraging about.


09;51;01;05 - 09;50;47;06

Jon

Engaging in conversations that are based on a disagreement is if you do it with the intent of proving the other person wrong, then you're just contributing to the problem. It's going to be painful, but if you do it, the intent of where can we stand together?


09;50;47;04 - 09;50;30;19

Jon

Like, I fully disagree with that. You fully disagree with this. But where can we find a place that we can stand together and then begin working on a solution for? That's refreshing, and that is the entire premise, but that is being cheapened and thrown out as people learn to hate each other more, not trust each other and


09;50;30;18 - 09;50;18;18

Jon

in, you know, in the in the policy political sphere as well to make it an us versus them thing instead of in us together versus whatever the issues exist versus the issue.


09;50;18;13 - 09;50;05;15

Kyle

It's it was the same thing like I was talking about the marriage thing. You have a disagreement with your significant other or whatever. It's you and me versus the problem, not me versus you, because I think I'm right, because then you're still harming the person that you're sharing that union with.


09;50;05;10 - 09;49;48;25

Kyle

And that overall union in this case, is that, you know, from what we're talking about as all Americans. But it could be all people. It could be all whatever. It doesn't matter that the point remains. I think to to kind of drill down into into that a little because I don't want to stay too vague.


09;49;48;16 - 09;49;37;09

Kyle

We see. When you say speed kills in this sense because you want it to be, um, I guess, taken in a certain light because I very much feel like a lot of these things be said have been about the vaccine.


09;49;36;12 - 09;49;18;08

Kyle

And I don't want to skirt around that too much for anyone that wants to hear about the nitty gritty of it. Sure. I would be careful in that verbiage or terminology, and what I mean by that is when you say speed kills, I know you're talking about appropriate health safeguards to do what's best for everybody, and I


09;49;18;08 - 09;49;07;23

Kyle

know that because you and I have had that conversation. But to an outside listener who might not know that or someone who's on this podcast but doesn't know you in a work sense in a friend sense and someone who has back and forth.


09;49;07;10 - 09;48;50;19

Kyle

I don't want someone to take that in a way where they think we should go slower despite people dying from that complication or others. What the overall message I believe you meant was, is that if we're going to make a decision, let's make the correct decision as we move forward, not what's the most convenient.


09;48;50;08 - 09;48;42;26

Kyle

That is a 60% solution, but then harms the other 40% that weren't involved in that majority, which is kind of how I took that.


09;48;42;16 - 09;48;32;04

Jon

I'm glad you brought that up because in my mind, I had a pretty clear trajectory that was not received. So this is super valuable. So when I was thinking the speed kills part, I was really thinking it like when you're making decisions.


09;48;31;06 - 09;48;16;12

Jon

And one group just forces a decision versus having the differences fleshed out and working towards that healthy compromise. Right. So like on a personal, I think of it like that holistic. There wasn't a specific instance. It was holistic like Howard government set up.


09;48;16;07 - 09;48;01;10

Jon

And even in relationships, right? If you're if you have a friendship or marriage and you come to an issue like that, you have to work to a conclusion on and. Either person, you or me like, let's say, you know, you and I have a disagreement, if I'm just like, No, this is the way it is.


09;48;01;09 - 09;47;39;05

Jon

Period. Right? That's it. Let's assume that sought to enforce that. That's not going to help us. Build better things, right, like our relationship will be damaged from me, foreseeing that one sided decision quickly. Right. And opposed to us working through in appreciating, respecting each other's differences and then creating a solution.


09;47;38;27 - 09;47;17;02

Jon

So when I said speed kills those in the context of differences, good holistically and having the risk and having the discipline to seek understanding and to respect the other party enough to want to seek understanding and to value that understanding and work towards a solution is something that's worth the time invested.


09;47;16;20 - 09;46;59;03

Jon

So it's very much so. He let's not. Holistically, let's engage in civil discourse to engage in these problem-solving things and create something that should last better over time because we agree upon the solution. Even if we disagree with aspects of it.


09;46;58;03 - 09;46;47;00

Jon

So so the speed kills portion and that was really looking at the system, not at a specific issue of. Navigating disagreement, navigating how to proceed on things.


09;46;46;21 - 09;46;32;02

Kyle

No, and I understand that it's just we had alluded to the vaccine previously and had mentioned to you, I don't want to present a false narrative narrative. I should say to certain listeners who might take it one way or the other.


09;46;31;21 - 09;46;16;18

Kyle

I want people to understand that our overarching conversation, we're using examples. But what we're really trying to zero in on is how you cross that bridge. And one of the things I want to bring up on that is I did you know some thinking about it on how you cross that bridge is?


09;46;14;13 - 09;45;57;10

Kyle

Actually, a model of how I think most problem-solving should be done where you work backwards from, so you take whatever the issue is and you go, well, this is the solution we desire right at the end. Mm-Hmm. Once both people agree on what solution they want, then it's just the avenue of how you want to get there


09;45;56;29 - 09;45;44;04

Kyle

. And that is a piece where I think it is easier for compromises to be made. Then when one group, be it politically or anything else, thinks they're going for a certain solution and another group thinks they're going for another.


09;45;43;24 - 09;45;24;08

Kyle

Yeah. And one of the examples I know about that is, you know. Kind of a taboo subject, but that's the point of what we're talking about here, so, you know, ten, maybe even 15 years ago when, you know, in politics, people we're talking about is same sex marriage allowable or not?


09;45;23;26 - 09;45;06;19

Kyle

Mm-Hmm. Now that was a very, you know, divisive hot topic for a very long time. And where I would say the answer to that solution that if both sides, sides at work back from would have been, well, what helps society the most, you know, does it hurt anybody to allow this?


09;45;06;19 - 09;44;53;25

Kyle

Is there a negative connotation to to to allow this? I would feel most people would think well. No, because they're not in my community, if they're not in my tribe, if they're not directly negatively impacting me. How does that hurt?


09;44;53;15 - 09;44;43;26

Kyle

And then if you go back from there, that essentially negates the entire issue of should it be allowed or should it not. Because at the end, it's holistically, who does this harm or who is it not? At least that's how I view it.


09;44;43;11 - 09;44;26;16

Kyle

In the same way when people are making, you know, specific laws about like speeding, for example, you may be a comfortable driver to drive 90 miles an hour, but a decision was made that the vast majority of the whole is safer by doing it this way, since the overall goal was safety in the community.


09;44;24;21 - 09;44;16;29

Kyle

To me, that seems sort of a, you know, OK, duh, that's fine, you know? Same with wearing a seatbelt. You know?


09;44;15;28 - 09;44;04;00

Jon

Well, yeah. And I think our conversation, I think we did a good job of setting up the ideas that we've entered into some of our conversations with. Right. And we're at a fine point now where we could either land the plane or we could just continue exploring some of those ideas together.


09;44;04;00 - 09;43;45;24

Jon

And I'm comfortable doing the latter. And I think that's what you're biting at the bit for, too. And, you know, just we get to share that conversation. So. At its core, I agree with you, and I think that's a wonderful tool of that thought about wording it that way and a practice tool, but like if you want


09;43;45;24 - 09;43;33;23

Jon

to start with, Hey, where do we agree, right? You can ask that question. But if that's not working or a different technique, both are like, I really like what you just brought up. Hey, what do we want to accomplish here is really asking the same thing?


09;43;33;20 - 09;43;16;24

Jon

Right? It's just it's more pointed. It makes it easier to articulate like work, you know, because it's actions and it's results driven. So right now, I'm just thinking through and appreciating the question. But yeah, you're absolutely right. If I notice that like as we start to talk about some of the things that are more relevant, for example


09;43;16;19 - 09;43;04;06

Jon

, because we left unfinished some of the topics around, you know? Really not the vaccine mandate. Well, yeah, the vaccine mandate and some of the decisions in what how do we handle these things? And of course, we're not authorities on anything.


09;43;04;06 - 09;42;49;12

Jon

We're just two dudes who are trying to navigate this life to the best of our being right. You know, looking at all these things, the the first question we asked. And the thing that continues to motivate us to go forward is like, Well, what do we want accomplish what we want to accomplish?


09;42;48;23 - 09;42;31;08

Jon

A result that protects everyone's freedoms to the best of their ability and also reduces risk and damage as much as possible? Right. So that there's not an infringement and danger on people's lives to the best of our ability as know war to their freedoms.


09;42;31;08 - 09;42;19;29

Jon

And that's where it gets very gray. And you do a good job earlier of highlighting when you start to talk about things that are not simple are very black and white. It's very difficult to work through the gray.


09;42;19;13 - 09;42;15;05

Jon

And that's where I think the art of it all comes in, but it's worth pushing into.


09;42;14;17 - 09;41;58;09

Kyle

Well, and I'd like to make a comment on that, too. When you say it's, it's hard to work through the gray. I think it's harder and much more of a substantial fight to work through the gray. When you have people that don't have that underlying first comment that you were alluding to, which is what do we want


09;41;58;09 - 09;41;44;11

Kyle

to accomplish? Yeah, I mean, and me, like I said, having the privilege of knowing you and knowing that we both stand sort of for the same two things we were looking to accomplish in this scenario of the vaccine.


09;41;44;00 - 09;41;31;09

Kyle

It was much easier. To say, hey, you know, even though we disagree on this, let's let's talk about how this would be in effect. Let's give an example of this. Well, you disagree with this example because it's not exactly apples to apples, to apples to oranges.


09;41;31;08 - 09;41;20;09

Kyle

All right. Let's tweak that. Let's look at it this way. And you know, we probably spent 45 minutes of that. Our conversation just saying, Well, here's an example of what I think I spoke to her on that. Oh, I can see why.


09;41;20;09 - 09;41;06;19

Kyle

That's a valid argument. Let's look at it from a different angle. And then you would give something and I would do the I would do the the opposite. And there's just so much to be gained from that because we gained so much ground in 45 minutes as two people.


09;41;06;13 - 09;40;45;04

Kyle

Could you imagine what kind of ground could be gained if everyone shared that underlying mentality of what's best for everybody? And we did that from an angle where it's, you know, for, for example, all policy makers, if you had 200 of the most intelligent people always making that decision, or even if you just had 50 of them


09;40;45;04 - 09;40;31;13

Kyle

in there who were the, you know, even five, just five, you know, the majority leader here, the right leader, they're two experts and then a decision maker. I mean, holy shit, like just just the gravity of what that could be.


09;40;31;00 - 09;40;16;13

Kyle

I can't even put it into words because it's been so long since I've seen even even a local electoral debate where people have had a conversation like that because. And that's another issue which which will table for later.


09;40;16;13 - 09;39;58;23

Kyle

But it's something I want to bring up. When you have a debate on something, you are categorically already describing it as me versus, you know, not us versus the issues. And I'm not saying that, you know, there's a perfect word for it, but I'm saying that that's something that should be addressed because how many times have I


09;39;58;23 - 09;39;45;21

Kyle

seen something on TV or heard on the radio where it's been? one person starts talking about an issue and then another and then another person makes a personal attack, discrediting why they can talk about the issue completely pulling away from the issue as a whole.


09;39;45;15 - 09;39;31;14

Kyle

And what the actual, you know, hopeful solution is, which is what we, as you know, either a constituent's or B people want to hear because we want things to improve, not deteriorate. And all of that is immediately out of the window within two minutes of every conversation.


09;39;31;14 - 09;39;29;09

Kyle

And it's just it's hurtful.


09;39;29;00 - 09;39;17;22

Jon

It is hurtful. And there's one quick aside and then I want to respond directly to that. Like, we keep referencing the conversation we had and I very intentionally not just jump back in like, what do you think about this and that?


09;39;17;14 - 09;39;03;18

Jon

And the reason I've not jump back in because we talked about maybe going there again is one we're so inundated right now with people talking about the vaccine and the different ways of playing it out. And as I've thought about how.


09;39;02;14 - 09;38;48;18

Jon

I'm happy to go somewhere if we're making new territory together, like if we're taking new ground, I'm happy to talk about anything that is under the sun with you, regardless of how uncomfortable may be. But I want to make sure that it's valuable for both of us, and I want to make sure that it's also a helpful


09;38;48;10 - 09;38;35;27

Jon

example for someone who may not have a freaking clue of how to engage in that type of conversation going forward without just rehashing what you and I have already done so. So just to be clear why, you know, for the listener, if the right come on, just get into it.


09;38;35;23 - 09;38;20;10

Jon

Well, that's why we're not just getting into what we already talked about, right? Will go where the conversation takes us. So that's the side. The point, though, to that being hurtful is you're right, man. These debates also, I think I think they start, I'm not entirely certain.


09;38;20;00 - 09;38;08;22

Jon

I think the intent was, Hey, here's a problem, right? Like, let's let's look at a political debate between two candidates in an election cycle. Hey, here's the problem that we're facing as a country or as a state or as a county or whatever.


09;38;07;24 - 09;37;48;04

Jon

What is your proposed solution? Right? And. As you guys debate, debate the debate for your proposed solution solving this problem. But now when you see it, it's morphed into this. How can I burn this guy in like, you know, how can I burn them that I look better?


09;37;48;03 - 09;37;34;27

Jon

How can I slay this dude or this girl and like, be just the. Higher level being coming out of this conversation, who basically won this like high school bullying.


09;37;34;05 - 09;37;20;14

Kyle

Well, and let's not move away from that too quickly because the part I want to bring up about is this we shall have to or you watch or tune in to or whatever a debate there's sometimes like up to ten topics.


09;37;20;14 - 09;37;06;22

Kyle

You know what it really should be. And my personal opinion there should be two, maybe three options. And when someone goes into saying, here's my proposed solution, I'm tired of hearing the we'll do this by throwing money at this.


09;37;06;17 - 09;36;50;25

Kyle

You know, we will accomplish this by allowing something that was previously on loud or whatever. I want to hear some elaboration because me, as someone who I believe to be at least, you know, slightly intelligent, I don't, I don't want to hear.


09;36;48;12 - 09;36;24;13

Kyle

I'm going to accomplish, you know. Guns being allowed everywhere, because that's what I believe. That's great. But how are you going to do that? How? I don't want to hear. We're going to fix. Economics by either adjusting wages or trying to do a trickle down effect or anything else, I want to hear how you are going to


09;36;24;13 - 09;36;10;11

Kyle

do that because the how something is accomplished, that gray is one what most voters want to hear. Because even though there are extreme people on either side, whether it be right or left, the vast majority of the people at least 80% fall somewhere in the middle.


09;36;09;23 - 09;35;56;14

Kyle

And if how someone's going to achieve something is going to be detrimental to either your way of way of life or how you want to reach said end and and goal or hurt too many people along the way, that's what people want to know.


09;35;55;12 - 09;35;41;27

Kyle

People don't care that you want to solve this problem. We know you want to solve the problem that that that's why you're even think being given the often chance to be in the position you were in. You know, that's why you are said policy maker.


09;35;41;19 - 09;35;26;13

Kyle

That is a service based position, which is akin to the other conversation on how forgotten that is. But that's what it is. And the reality is, I don't want to hear you're going to fix X, Y and Z, because first of all, that's just a promise that doesn't mean anything gets pushed through Senate or Congress.


09;35;26;13 - 09;35;09;28

Kyle

So it's worth literally nothing which people need to keep in mind when these debates are happening, because someone can say they're going to give you the world, but it's not worth anything until anything's actually come into effect. The second part I wanted to highlight on that, most importantly, is if you are looking at at someone who's saying


09;35;09;28 - 09;34;58;19

Kyle

they're going to solve a problem, how are they going to solve it? Because guess what? I can solve violence in the world if I just kill everyone, because then there's no more violence. But the how of us doing that is kind of crappy because we're all gone.


09;34;58;11 - 09;34;45;12

Kyle

I can solve world hunger by just giving away food, but you got to think if we just give away food to everybody. How does it impact people who farm and do that for a living? How does it impact the quality of the food?


09;34;45;12 - 09;34;31;13

Kyle

Is it going to keep people living or is it going to be like in the dark ages? You know, how does it impact the how is what people need to zero in on? And I wish I could just, you know, if I was influential enough to have a TED talk and tell people that it's the how.


09;34;31;04 - 09;34;15;13

Jon

It is the how and what would one of the things there's so much we could go there. So I'm going to select one the. The idea that it's theirs to fix, right? I think that is a fundamental misconception and part of the problem because.


09;34;13;11 - 09;33;59;04

Jon

You touched on the point, I'm going, I'm going to merge two together. You touched on the point that our political servants and that's what they are, are there to serve the people who vote them into office, right? That's the entire purpose of the government as we've set it up in America.


09;33;58;11 - 09;33;37;07

Jon

And their job is not to promise a solution their jobs, not even to fix the problem. That's the issue. Their job is to create policies that afford the people, us to fix the problem, to create an environment in which we can resolve the issues.


09;33;36;27 - 09;33;19;11

Jon

And I think that's something that is like two steps even further back. Because if if a post is created that allow and the. The fundamental issues, the idea right now is not that we are to take ownership of the problems we see in work to fix them in our lives, right?


09;33;19;02 - 09;33;08;09

Jon

If as a mayor, as a guy, you as a guy, everyone we knew. We're all like, OK, as we go through life, when we see a problem, we're going to work to fix that problem. We're going to work to make it better so that tomorrow is better than today.


09;33;07;29 - 09;32;48;25

Jon

We're going to do these things. If that was our culture, then we would make sense that we just want. Are public servants to put into effect policies that help foster an environment that maximizes that in state right and minimizes things that destroy that opportunity?


09;32;48;01 - 09;32;31;21

Jon

That's where you'd have your speeding while, hey, we're losing all these people because they're going 80, we're going to bring it down at 65. And yada yada, this is now creating environment in which we have more people who can create better problems and those who deviate from that are at risk of hurting someone else in that environment


09;32;31;20 - 09;32;14;00

Jon

. So it's like, OK, this is a that is an example of a constraint that we place on ourselves or allowing ourselves because we're seeing certain losses, but we don't need them to fix. You know, poverty, right? We need them to back their jobs, not to be the solution there.


09;32;13;29 - 09;32;03;02

Jon

Their job is not to dictate whether or not we can or cannot do things. It's decree. I think it's the step back, the misconception. The misconception is that it's theirs to fix, and that's the empty promises to give us.


09;32;02;23 - 09;31;48;21

Jon

But if you look at the how the how is by educating and empowering us, the people to fix the problem. And to come and to create the framework to preserve the solutions as we continue forward.


09;31;48;15 - 09;31;33;20

Kyle

Yeah, to make the process a durable process, it can't be this person was in charge, whoever it may be at whatever level for two years, four years, three years. Your boss had a job and they do a good job of making something go well and the next boss comes in.


09;31;33;20 - 09;31;21;13

Kyle

And then all of a sudden, in whatever scenario, you know, whether it be work or anything like that, everything chain changes. And that, I think is one of the biggest issues when you talk about it because we have ventured into the political pool.


09;31;21;13 - 09;31;04;05

Kyle

So let's dove right in. The biggest thing being. There's too much overture, in my opinion, of when someone in place is a policy. I mean, how many times in just my lifetime my short 30 year life have I seen the same policy pancaked?


09;31;03;16 - 09;30;48;21

Kyle

I mean, I can name a dozen off the top of my head. And the issue with that is. Not that there's a problem with flipping over, but it needs to be with once again the how are the why is it flipping over?


09;30;48;21 - 09;30;35;21

Kyle

Because we have gained new knowledge and we have become more intelligent on the topic due to certain experts that could possibly, you know, dedicate their lives to it. Like one of the examples you and I spoke about in the previous phone call was about smoking.


09;30;35;00 - 09;30;24;05

Kyle

But what I want to highlight on that is that smoking used to be allowed in hospitals and in certain places. And then as we got more intelligent on that, we changed that law. That, to me, is an intelligent overture.


09;30;24;05 - 09;30;10;05

Kyle

We go, Oh, we become more intelligent on this topic. Let's move beyond our rudimentary understanding and grow. Mm-Hmm. But the issue I keep finding is that we're policymakers and decision makers are at what they tend to keep doing.


09;30;10;05 - 09;29;57;22

Kyle

Is this? Group A wanted to do this thing, so I'm going to say I don't want to because I'm a Group B and the way they find their commonality, their middle ground is how you and I are talking with what's best.


09;29;57;11 - 09;29;43;27

Kyle

It's well, I'll give you this group, but then you have to give Group B this. That's not a real compromise that's degrading. And that's the biggest issue I have with that. Policymakers boss is any of that. A lot of it is based on trading.


09;29;43;27 - 09;29;28;01

Kyle

If I will give you this, you know. Hey. one of the examples recently was gun control, it was I'm going to take away the type of magazines I believe you're allowed to have in certain states or or certain other attachments or whatever.


09;29;27;19 - 09;29;11;08

Kyle

But by doing so, I'm not going to enforce mental health checks on gun on gun control because that was a big fight and push from the NRA. NHRA and I hated both of those compromises because one I believe you're you're into a freedom means you should be able to do whatever you want with guns if you haven't


09;29;11;08 - 09;28;57;24

Kyle

done anything wrong with them, who's to say that you can't enjoy whatever attachment or thing that you want? I think that's stupid. But I also think it's stupid to say, Well, we're going to take away a safety and balance check that says if you had some sort of mental disorder, we're not going to check you on that


09;28;57;24 - 09;28;56;17

Kyle

before you buy a firearm.


09;28;56;12 - 09;28;55;24

Jon

Absolutely.


09;28;55;14 - 09;28;40;22

Kyle

Why can't you? Why can't you check people and then allow them to have whatever they want? Because by checking them, you are saying I'm going to invent an avenue of which I believe their safety because I believe you are mentally and physically sound to make that decision.


09;28;40;15 - 09;28;21;24

Kyle

Well, it doesn't mean that can't change later, but you can't take that away from somebody until they have proven they've done wrong in the same way you're innocent until proven guilty. So not to tirade too much into this particular topic, but the the the overarching message is it's not about trading.


09;28;21;16 - 09;28;11;04

Kyle

It should be about the commonality of how do we find the best answer to allow everybody their freedoms while also allowing them everything else that they are pursuant to, which is, you know, life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.


09;28;08;26 - 09;27;58;28

Jon

You have proof that doesn't you just drop like 33 rapid fire shells on me, so let me see, let me think for just a second.


09;27;58;03 - 09;27;56;00

Kyle

I would dissect the way your heart's content.


09;27;52;28 - 09;27;38;27

Jon

Well, OK. So first I want to make sure I understand what you started with so that I'm not talking off a misconception. But when you spoke about how you you don't like the. The pancaking of policies that you see in in that there's this.


09;27;38;04 - 09;27;24;14

Jon

What I understood when you said that was that let's say you have Republicans come in and make a policy and then four years later, Democrats take the House, you know, take over. They they completely reverse the poll. Right?


09;27;24;09 - 09;27;09;01

Jon

And then, you know, later, once the other side gets back and they reverse it again. When you talk about like the pancaking back and forth, are you talking about that like heavy, heavy pendulum swing of like radical shift here and then the next person to charge a radical shift back?


09;27;08;23 - 09;27;07;18

Kyle

Yeah, that's like a.


09;27;07;15 - 09;27;06;22

Jon

Tit for tat.


09;27;06;15 - 09;26;55;09