Image by asoggetti

The Grit Theory

Search

29. Stewardship of Pain



 

Bad things happen all of the time for no reason or purpose, but we get to choose how we will respond to them. Today we discuss loss, grief, pain, and the means to positively navigate them as individuals, parents, and leaders. Highlights include: - The “Cocktail of Despair” = Greif + Loss + Pain + Fear + Isolation + Division - Leading family through loss. - Ways to approach and heal through grief. - Taking ownership despite the cost. - Mourn while you work, mourn while you lead. Life will continue in spite of loss. - “Let it in, let it last, let it fade” -unkown. - Choosing to come together. Did you find value in today’s conversation? SHARE IT!

Join The Grit Theory Community Here!


 

08;06;40;01 - 08;06;39;16

Aaron

There we go.


08;06;39;14 - 08;06;37;14

Jon

OK. Good morning, everyone. Hello, good.


08;06;37;14 - 08;06;36;23

Aaron

Morning.


08;06;36;08 - 08;06;29;12

Jon

But you will not see because it's so unnecessary is the absolute atrocity of 90 seconds it took care of tonight to get going.


08;06;28;21 - 08;06;21;02

Aaron

So it's like a tone deaf person clapping along to a fun song, just trying to clapping off take.


08;06;20;25 - 08;06;19;14

Jon

Off tone to speak.


08;06;19;14 - 08;06;18;21

Aaron

This way.


08;06;18;08 - 08;06;04;28

Jon

So, hey, things are real. Things are wrong, and they're not always pretty or perfect. So which is actually a really good tie in to what you and I were talking? And, you know, just reminder our our show, everything that you and I do here when it's our show.


08;06;04;28 - 08;05;50;22

Jon

So we talk about what we want, which just feels good, even say Anna, too. It's a journey, right? Every conversation with guests and with each other are journeys of exploration in something right with the guests. It's exploring them with each other.


08;05;50;22 - 08;05;37;01

Jon

It's exploring a topic. So we don't have prescriptive stuff. And I think that's a valuable thing to point to every once in a while because so many shows are pretty scripted. We put in thought in preparation, but we don't script our conversation.


08;05;36;27 - 08;05;32;27

Aaron

It's like a living journal. All about it is like reflecting on this.


08;05;32;24 - 08;05;21;00

Jon

It's an adventure. Yeah, it's a it's a conversational thought adventure. And that's why it's so fun to say, Hey, welcome and thank you for joining us today on our journey. And you know, one reminder the show isn't free.


08;05;20;20 - 08;05;04;17

Jon

So if you were inspired today, if you're encouraged, if you're convicted or challenged, please pay it forward. Share it, share it with others who you think could benefit from this adventure in conversation. So looking today, you're talking about dealing with difficult things, right?


08;05;04;07 - 08;04;45;27

Jon

And there we're starting to see a lot of push back on things that have become normal, right? Socially, politically, communally, across the spectrum. And one of the things you see, too, is like a critique of social media for, you know, causing depression in further isolation.


08;04;45;27 - 08;04;26;00

Jon

Because what is everyone post? Everyone posts these beautiful things. Right? They post the best 2% of their life and it creates this miss. Believe this. This lie that their life is this gorgeous 2% when there's 90 other 98% across the spectrum from crappy degree.


08;04;25;15 - 08;04;19;20

Jon

And you know that that's an unfortunate thing. So today we're talking about the other 98%, really.


08;04;19;15 - 08;04;03;29

Aaron

And that's that's real. I don't think that people realize how much we do convince ourselves that people's lives are really that good all the time. No one does a selfie during a fight. You know, one or three really difficult like this is ugly stuff.


08;04;03;28 - 08;03;52;24

Jon

And there's there's, you know, we're talking about stewarding pain today. So let's just frame that in real, real hard and early. And then let's put it that for another minute. But we're talking about stirring pain. What do we mean by stewarding pain?


08;03;52;24 - 08;03;51;09

Jon

What is what the heck is stewardship?


08;03;50;16 - 08;03;34;02

Aaron

You know, can I can I just start with framing a bit? Yeah. I so there than I am. A lot of what we're talking about this because you're going through right now, very it's a very, very real. I'm going through some loss right now.


08;03;32;26 - 08;03;10;09

Aaron

Family dog loved favorite family dog just last two days ago. You call me Mr Call. See the text, call you. It's bad. Show up at the house and we're literally burying your family dog, right? It's not like a fun situation.


08;03;10;09 - 08;03;01;10

Aaron

It's like the only thing you do is a friend. When you hear that happens is I'll be right there. That's yeah, that's the only appropriate response. So what do you do?


08;03;00;28 - 08;02;49;19

Jon

Well, and and that's what you did. So, you know, I had my truck, you know, drag her in. We give you a call. OK, if you can come help gig, that'd be great. All right. You dropped. Everything came.


08;02;49;19 - 08;02;43;20

Jon

So that is a true testament. Friendship, right? We talk a lot about who's willing to answer the call when needed, right?


08;02;43;18 - 08;02;31;00

Aaron

And if it weren't for this podcast right now or even whatever you want to share on social media, it's certainly not like this picture moment. Like I'm in a frame by frame. Talk about this. This time I'm going through.


08;02;30;28 - 08;02;20;21

Aaron

No, no one does. Although on some level, I wish people would to go, Hey, this is real. This is like, Hey, this is a moment where I'm really dealing with this. This is this is shaping me in some way.


08;02;20;21 - 08;02;13;18

Aaron

This is going to shape my thoughts going forward. I'm not just always smiling all the time. Sometimes I'm I'm weeping.


08;02;13;15 - 08;02;09;28

Jon

Yeah, yeah. And there's been some weeping. We did.


08;02;09;20 - 08;01;53;01

Aaron

Yeah. And so I wanted to bring it up because I should, you know, I questioned even saying this to you. I mean, we're digging this this hole and it's like, this is an awful circumstance. Hmm. And I get I don't know if it's nerves or anything.


08;01;53;01 - 08;01;37;27

Aaron

Maybe someone out there is like me and they just make jokes when when things are too serious or too thick. And I'm just I said, I said, Well, this isn't I guess, I guess I got shot. Instagram didn't I, John for a minute, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, What the hell am I?


08;01;37;16 - 08;01;22;09

Aaron

What did I say that it's like if you should just say nothing and dig this hole and just get through this really difficult time? Your wife is there, you know, it's like, I'm trying to I. I just feel I feel that tense tension there.


08;01;22;09 - 08;01;11;26

Aaron

But I mean, you're walking through it in a healthy way, but it's hard. Yeah, but you're so then what is your response? I didn't know you did this, so I'm like, At least you know what?


08;01;11;13 - 08;01;10;16

Jon

Yeah, it's funny because you did.


08;01;10;16 - 08;01;08;28

Aaron

It's not time to take a picture. Is it, John?


08;01;08;27 - 08;00;54;16

Jon

You did hit a nerve in like right now I picture if you're building a rope, right, you have a lot of fiber strands that get bound together to create a rope. Right? And in our conversations, like I see five strands that I want to tie together to the rope so that we can't fall into your conversation.


08;00;54;02 - 08;00;38;19

Jon

So there's a few pieces to that. So I'm going to try to bind this up real quick so we can continue forward in a unified fashion. And because we've talked about, like I said, five things in the last few minutes.


08;00;37;12 - 08;00;17;02

Jon

So the first thing that I'm thinking about is stewardship, right? Well, what is stewardship? Stewardship is the task or job or position of supervising or taking care of something something. And there is a strong Christian connotation to the word right where I think it's probably most widely used today, and that has an additional implication with the word


08;00;16;24 - 09;59;54;18

Jon

which would be to. It's a special responsibility to guard it, use it and cultivate it wisely. Right. So the end is more in mind and not being wasteful is a heavy implication. So I think if you look at it, regardless of your belief through those two contexts, it kind of gives this idea of like, OK, well, what


09;59;54;18 - 09;59;36;09

Jon

is stewarding pain look like? It's because that's what we're talking about today, and I know we'll come to that a lot, but that's the central core thing. It's like, how do you? Cultivate, utilize. And guard, what can come from pain wisely, right, to create something good?


09;59;36;08 - 09;59;29;00

Aaron

Well, you were wise to identify it right away, you know, because what are we stewarding? Hmm. It's like your happiness. No, not right now.


09;59;28;17 - 09;59;28;07

Jon

No.


09;59;27;15 - 09;59;26;22

Aaron

We're not doing that.


09;59;26;06 - 09;59;13;07

Jon

And it's interesting because I have to give a shout out credit to my wife, Lindsey, because she's the one who's like, Hey, there's all these things out there where it's talking about managing and stewarding money, right? Marriage relationships, business resources.


09;59;12;28 - 09;59;00;27

Jon

But there's no one who really talks about stewarding and managing pain, right with the end in mind to utilize these things wisely and in. There's a lot that comes into that, and that's what you and I have been talking about the last few days, right?


09;59;00;27 - 09;58;55;16

Jon

With the experience of us losing our favorite and best dog, you know, and needing to bury her.


09;58;55;15 - 09;58;48;26

Aaron

The irony is we share. I think you shared a podcast with me right before this happened about this very subject, about starting suffering.


09;58;48;12 - 09;58;45;29

Jon

Yeah, it's it's suffering loss, grief, pain.


09;58;45;21 - 09;58;38;14

Aaron

Right? And it was like in in the moment, it was sort of like, Man, that's really profound. And then you walk through it again and it's way more profound.


09;58;38;13 - 09;58;20;20

Jon

Well, and that's something that's really fun because I realized we're cultivating a way of life here in a mindset, right with the types of conversations you and I have. And on this show and what I realized walking through this is it has become so much a part of my thought has become of who it's become a part


09;58;20;20 - 09;58;07;12

Jon

of who I am. So even walking through, you know, a very ugly death, right? It wasn't a clean mike in your sleep type of thing. And digging the grave and all that stuff, I knew I would have had to have chosen.


09;58;06;13 - 09;57;53;19

Jon

A path of least of less resilience because I knew what needed done, so I would have had it chosen not to do what I needed done, which is such, I think, a cool outcome of the work we've been doing.


09;57;52;05 - 09;57;41;28

Jon

So so that's kind of the core thread here and what we're wrapping around that and like the joking with social media and some of these other things, it's like, Hey, there, there's a lot of fake lies out there on what life's actually like.


09;57;41;15 - 09;57;25;06

Jon

But the bottom line truth is bad. Things happen all the time for no reason whatsoever. There's no way behind it. There's no good. There's no there's no silver lining. But we have the power authority and ability to choose how we respond and we can create.


09;57;24;29 - 09;57;11;01

Jon

We can create something good out of something terrible and great. And in that good that didn't exist, it wasn't there. But we can find it, create it, not even find it. We can freaking create it out of the ashes of loss.


09;57;10;21 - 09;56;56;16

Jon

And that is an empire and empowering and inspiring calling, you know, the social media thing in every joke. There's a a shred of truth. Right? So like, I hate social media despite my posting, but I use it.


09;56;56;03 - 09;56;53;22

Aaron

That's why I poke you, because I know that about you.


09;56;53;05 - 09;56;40;00

Jon

It works for to hate it, but I use it. I'm trying to use it as a tool for personal privilege, of course. Yeah, encouragement for others. I swear if I didn't get messages of like, thanks for some of the crap I put out there.


09;56;38;15 - 09;56;26;22

Aaron

You know, and I'll just give a shout out, John, like in the midst of this tough conversation, I do think what you're posting is really fun. If you haven't checked out John's Instagram or Facebook, make the postings there.


09;56;26;22 - 09;56;18;15

Aaron

Actually, they'll make you smile, they'll encourage you, they'll challenge you. I mean, they're really good, but I still I still had some fun with you because you're.


09;56;18;12 - 09;56;16;26

Jon

It's very fair. Yeah, I like.


09;56;16;22 - 09;56;12;12

Aaron

I got to. I'm just insecure. I don't do it as much as you. So therefore I get to make fun of you, I guess.


09;56;11;27 - 09;55;57;18

Jon

So and there's a lot of dark jokes while we're digging that grave I wanted to do. But for my wife's heart, I did it because by the way, it's a big dog. She's larger than Lindsey, my wife. Yeah, she's much like she's probably 20 £30 larger than my wife, right?


09;55;57;17 - 09;55;53;22

Jon

So that grave was a large grave to dig. It took us a couple hours.


09;55;53;15 - 09;55;41;02

Aaron

There was a quite a bit of clay and then going on, we had a miner's pick and the whole thing. Yeah, which which was I think it was part of the healing process, like because we had I think we had other means to do that quicker.


09;55;40;27 - 09;55;33;28

Aaron

Yeah. And it was more like you said this too. It's like, I need to do this by hand. I need to really embrace it.


09;55;33;08 - 09;55;14;17

Jon

There's psychological benefit to giving yourself a physical means of letting go of something. So call it psychological. Right? And you know, there's a lot of data backing that, whether it's writing it and throwing it away, whether it's baring it, giving yourself that physical ceremony of intentional release is important.


09;55;14;17 - 09;54;55;25

Jon

So digging the grave bearing or when? Covering it up, taking the kids out to kids without prompting, without thought they naturally wanted to kind of pet the ground where she was buried. To say farewell. Right? And then, you know, and we walked through that because I'm trying to raise.


09;54;54;24 - 09;54;46;27

Jon

Men of courage and character. And that includes emotional intelligence in the building to understand what they're experiencing. So we walked through those emotions.


09;54;46;26 - 09;54;44;01

Aaron

Well, if you ever put a hand on a casket, it's the same kind of the same thing.


09;54;44;00 - 09;54;32;15

Jon

It's goodbye. Yeah, we were physical beings, and that's why we tie back to physical fitness and all these other things. It's like we are not separate from our bodies. And but you, you made this joke and this is the final strand.


09;54;32;15 - 09;54;17;15

Jon

And I think we've tied this forever together. It's pretty great as you're digging your like, yeah, no one pose a picture of someone digging and digging a grave. It's like always meant to be funny or beautiful. So I snap some ugly, blurry picture of you digging real quick.


09;54;17;15 - 09;54;02;28

Jon

We have like this tiny little lantern we're digging by, and I had zero interest in being on Instagram, right? Because, you know, there's a filter that I do apply for what I'll put on the world. But that's not the glamorous versus the ugly.


09;54;02;27 - 09;53;51;08

Jon

It's it's what is not for you being, you know, outside of the inner circle in what can be shared. And that evening was for the people who were present going through the loss, right?


09;53;51;08 - 09;53;36;18

Aaron

I think that that's so funny, ironic humor. I know one takes a picture of someone very digging grave until now. Yeah. Well, but I think what you're what we're saying, though, John, is that we don't want anybody to think that they're alone in this.


09;53;36;18 - 09;53;35;16

Aaron

Like, it's not us.


09;53;35;15 - 09;53;35;01

Jon

That's it.


09;53;34;27 - 09;53;17;19

Aaron

If you've ever gone through horrible pain and you think you're unique in it, or maybe you're going through right now, and it's I mean, it's hard to get out of bed. Like, we've have been there and we don't know your exact circumstance, but I'd tell you the feeling is not uncommon to man, we we have that commonality


09;53;17;19 - 09;53;12;24

Aaron

is true. What is what is different about us is how we're going to handle it. And that's kind of what we're talking about today.


09;53;12;22 - 09;52;59;03

Jon

Well, we are, I think as humans are attracted to the genuine and the authentic right. And you know, how to we don't want some Ponzi, how to get rich, quick scheme for life and.


09;52;58;28 - 09;52;54;18

Aaron

How to how to grieve the loss and five easy steps. And yeah, it's six weeks. That's not the.


09;52;54;18 - 09;52;36;03

Jon

Word. It's wrong. Ugly, right? Yeah. But it gets everywhere. There's terrible smells. There's terrible sounds. You know, it's it's not fun. So you. When you made the joke, no one takes a picture of being grave as like I've zero interest on being anywhere but here, but I just took the picture to post the next day because I


09;52;36;03 - 09;52;16;04

Jon

knew would be a helpful reminder as part of the story here, right? And this is one of the problems with grief and loss and ugly things like this and pain is it has a. You become defensive, right, because you want to avoid further discomfort and defensiveness often means isolation.


09;52;15;29 - 09;51;59;29

Jon

Right? You pull in. You put up the guards you, you lock yourself away. And that is a very dangerous thing. There's times at works, right? You touch something that's hot. You burn yourself, you pull your hand back. But for most things have.


09;51;58;11 - 09;51;42;19

Jon

For most things, pain can become a catalyst towards division in isolation, right? It can be an interim point into that journey away from a strong, strong relationships that make you more resilient. And you know, that's one of the reasons I took the picture we made.


09;51;42;19 - 09;51;25;14

Jon

The joke is, I want if I'm going to spend the time putting stuff out there with what we're doing on the grid theory, right? We are fighting for and towards unity and strength. Yeah. So I say here's a great example of something that's not pretty.


09;51;25;02 - 09;51;04;23

Jon

It sucks. It absolutely sucks. And by sharing it authentically and by taking the own freaking medicine that I've been sharing with everyone that we've been sharing with everyone. Yeah, I get to now, you know, I have the opportunity to actually exemplify the things we talk about through uncomfortable situation.


09;51;04;23 - 09;50;43;01

Aaron

Agreed. I think one of the things that you said recently, because at the time of this airing, we're we're just days away from celebrating, is that the right word? But remembering 20, the 20th anniversary of nine in which which in for the first time in a long time, our whole nation wept together about something we at least


09;50;43;01 - 09;50;22;14

Aaron

reunified. And this is a horrible thing that just happened to our nation. We lost something here right now. How are we going to go forward and how? How are we going to grieve together? And you said, you said that part of your grief process that you've noticed is that it's really potent right now, but it's like you


09;50;22;14 - 09;50;09;23

Aaron

need it to be potent because then you can repeat the potency. And he said that potency is lost and repetition that was kind of, I thought was a profound thing to say. I think though, the prerequisite is potency.


09;50;09;03 - 09;49;49;28

Aaron

I mean, if you're repeating a lesser version or something, it's like, this is what I can handle. Eventually, you're going to have to go back to the reality of how bad it was and I've been. I went to the 911 Music Museum a few months back, and it's it's like you remember the steel beams that were made


09;49;49;28 - 09;49;35;02

Aaron

famous by, you know, all the the servicemen put their their patches all over the steel beam and it became sort of this iconic, you know, place of remembrance and in deep, deep grief for what was lost. And they have that there.


09;49;34;17 - 09;49;16;21

Aaron

And you're getting closer to it. It's like. And museums are great. If they're done well, it makes it potent again. It makes it really real again, as if it was, it just had happened. And it's it makes you feel the feelings again, which I think some would say, I don't want to.


09;49;16;12 - 09;49;02;06

Aaron

I want to get away from that. Mm hmm. But we're saying you got to at some point you got to press into it and then that may take a counselor to help you walk through that, you know, like, don't be reckless about it, but getting steering that thing right in the eyes and feeling that feeling and letting


09;49;02;06 - 09;48;57;21

Aaron

and allowing that to stay for a while and deal with that is actually good.


09;48;57;05 - 09;48;39;20

Jon

Yeah, it is. And I think we're talking about two things here, right? I think you just brought up two ideas. The one is let us not forget. Right, right. And like with with 911, what I think, what I hope we can remember aside from the loss is what that loss encouraged.


09;48;39;14 - 09;48;23;09

Jon

Yes, that loss encouraged some pretty significant unification. Yes. Right. And it's like, OK, each time. Remember the loss? Let's remember what it produced in unification, right? Yeah. And in greater respect and love for a neighbor, you know? Oh yeah.


09;48;23;07 - 09;48;03;16

Jon

And and that's the same with any loss, right? So like, losing a dog is painful. Mm hmm. But I do. It's not lost on me. The gratitude that I have that I am privileged enough to live a life that allows my family and I to deeply mourn the loss of a wonderful dog.


09;48;03;11 - 09;47;47;12

Jon

Mm hmm. Right. I mean. We were talking about this earlier, but I think it's important because we it's so easy to get stuck in our little vacuums, like in North Korea today, kids are eating rats that they catch with their hands that are eating the deceased humans around them.


09;47;47;08 - 09;47;22;09

Jon

Hmm. That's a thing. The meat markets have undisclosed meat that's for sale. Everyone starving and the super cheap meat is allegedly often human flesh. There's all these. There's the organ harvesting, right? There's human trafficking and stuff. So and not just North Korea that spans most of the world, so over large swaths of the world.


09;47;22;09 - 09;47;11;29

Jon

So like, you look at all those things and it's like, Man, yeah. The fact that I live in such an existence where my dog has this, you know, a significant place in her family as a guardian to protect your companion.


09;47;11;24 - 09;46;56;10

Jon

And we can mourn that it doesn't cheapen the loss, but definitely makes me appreciative of my circumstances through the loss. And I think it's valuable to take those types of things into perspective. Now jumping from that when we're looking at.


09;46;55;02 - 09;46;49;25

Jon

You made the comment when we're talking about repetition. Removes or.


09;46;48;27 - 09;46;48;18

Aaron

So.


09;46;48;09 - 09;46;47;04

Jon

Diminishes potency.


09;46;47;03 - 09;46;46;24

Aaron

Yeah.


09;46;46;22 - 09;46;34;13

Jon

Mm hmm. Right. So it's like, well, think about it, if you're you're training or let's say you're right, you're right, the more you write, the easier it can become to write, the more you ride a bike, the easier it is to balance right at the first couple of times you fall off.


09;46;33;17 - 09;46;09;23

Jon

But you get to the point where you can balance much easier, right? You're repetitively trying something until the risk of falling is less. The potency is less. Well, the same is true of. Trauma, pain and loss. Right. I think when your natural inclination is to pull away, you allow something to stay at its size and danger level


09;46;09;05 - 09;45;49;00

Jon

. And so like I was even noticing because there were some pretty. You know, jarring. Visible audible scent related pieces to do Orange Death. And, you know, from moving her and things like that that are like very clearly in my memory.


09;45;48;19 - 09;45;30;15

Jon

So it's like, OK, each time this little flash of thought comes into my mind of, you know, those? Very visceral experiences. I have a choice I can either choose to like, try and change my mind real quick, or I can choose to walk through the discomfort and pain of that experience and think, how could I have responded


09;45;30;15 - 09;45;15;26

Jon

better, maybe? Or just to face it head on? Detail for detail. And then after experiencing it, saying, OK, that terrible. And then I choose to remember or think about something positive after I walked through it. Deep breath, let it out.


09;45;15;20 - 09;45;04;05

Jon

Let's move on. And what I've realized is when I made that decision to say, Yeah, that really sucked. And then to face it, each time it flashes into my mind, instead of just trying to change my thought, it loses its potency.


09;45;04;05 - 09;45;01;29

Jon

It becomes less jarring.


09;45;01;14 - 09;44;47;17

Aaron

Because we've we've given it like a team in our head. It's like, is this a negative emotion or a positive emotions? It's just an emotion. It's like, don't put it in that box. Like to think about this. It's like, Oh, that's negative.


09;44;47;17 - 09;44;34;19

Aaron

It's like, No, it's just it's real as it's like, Think on it. Yeah, like, how does that affect you? What do you what do you you know, what is what does that take you kind of thing? And because as you say, it's you can't ignoring it.


09;44;34;13 - 09;44;21;07

Aaron

It's not like, it's like this big monster that because you ignore it, it gets its feelings hurt and leaves your mind it like it lingers and it stays strong and sometimes gets bigger over time, bigger than it needs to.


09;44;21;06 - 09;44;20;25

Aaron

What that.


09;44;20;25 - 09;44;09;17

Jon

Which is unknown and ambiguous, is frightening. Right, right. And then you've shared this idea a couple of times about how do you handle grief? You let it in. You let it last. You let it fate. And like.


09;44;09;01 - 09;44;04;19

Aaron

I stole that I wanted. Just like all knowledge, we steal it right.


09;44;04;11 - 09;43;51;00

Jon

And natural air in an original earthquake. But but the premise is true, and I think it's really what's shocking is I think it's been true for ever. Like, I can't think of a time when it would have been true, but we live in a time.


09;43;50;28 - 09;43;36;29

Jon

It's so countercultural, like with safe spaces. And let us dare not have a negative emotional response or you're the enemy and like that is very damaging. Hmm. And I'm sorry for the people who hold that mindset right now.


09;43;36;21 - 09;43;23;02

Jon

Right. And I hope that they can come to the place soon where they can begin to face the difficulties of life and gain some resilience because life would destroy you. Right. And it's not my job to protect the naive right who want to stay in that place.


09;43;22;28 - 09;43;06;26

Jon

Right? So good luck. The thing that's interesting is when you look at something right that that is terrible and you face it head on. Right? That's like letting it in peace. Yeah, right. By choosing to say, Yeah, that really sucked.


09;43;06;26 - 09;42;53;17

Jon

And yeah, that was really jarring and that was not fun. And that really hurts. And then, like, evaluate it, right? If you have to write it out, if you have to bury it, whatever the case is like, face that thing, head on and accept the emotions when we were talking with Ken, can you, Clark?


09;42;53;16 - 09;42;39;21

Jon

Yeah, way back. He was like he was talking about how he was just learning that there's no bad emotion. Right, right? It's just emotion. Yeah, and that's true. Like, knowing how to handle something doesn't make it less terrible.


09;42;39;19 - 09;42;34;04

Jon

Mm hmm. It just means you now have to choose not to handle it correctly, to try and avoid. Yeah.


09;42;33;29 - 09;42;28;18

Aaron

Like, we feel guilty that we're managing it as if we're being irreverent to how terrible it is.


09;42;27;25 - 09;42;08;01

Jon

Well, you could correct. And that's where I've honestly struggled a little bit with like Aaron's death because like beyond the obvious reasons, because I've gotten a lot of well-wishes and love and I appreciate every ounce of support. But like, I have had to reject certain premises like, Yeah, this is this is super traumatic for you.


09;42;08;01 - 09;41;56;00

Jon

This is super this or that or this or that. It's like, you know, I don't own the I don't claim that over my life. Like, Yes, this is absolutely heartbreaking. We are heartbroken. We're mourning the loss of something beautiful.


09;41;55;12 - 09;41;39;15

Jon

But. And there were traumatic aspects of it, right? Frankly, for Lindsay's sake, I won't just describe on the show, which I typically would because she was primarily hers. And looking at those things, though, it's like, Yeah. So all these things are tied together, but it's not going to.


09;41;39;01 - 09;41;26;17

Jon

It's not going to damage me. Yeah, it just it was just a wound. And there will be a scar, but it's not going to change negatively. I'm not gonna have a limp from this, you know? Yeah.


09;41;26;16 - 09;41;14;10

Aaron

Like, it's like it's as if somebody's in. I'm sure this is not the intention of the person, but it could be is if someone's saying, well, it's clear you'll never walk again, you know, it's like, well, not necessarily, you know?


09;41;14;10 - 09;40;58;07

Aaron

Yeah, like, yeah, this is really bad. You're right. Like, I don't diminish that, but trauma will be in in looking back on, trauma won't be known until you walk it out because you're going to see in the future how bad it really was or whatever.


09;40;58;07 - 09;40;47;03

Aaron

But you're trying to diminish. It's okay. I do want to walk again. I don't I don't want to stop here and feel totally paralyzed by this. I don't want to ignore it. I do know there's some. I do need to tend to this.


09;40;47;03 - 09;40;46;00

Aaron

I need to deal with it.


09;40;45;22 - 09;40;31;08

Jon

Yeah, because we don't need more baggage in weight to carry around. So it's like, I know that this is not good. So we're going to face it as a family head on now we're going to walk or we're going to coach our children through healthier ways of management.


09;40;30;24 - 09;40;16;07

Jon

We're going to walk through this couple. We're going to walk through individually. Why? Because like, to your point, then you could find yourself. And this is the problem. When you experience these things and you ignore them or you run from them, then that's where you have, like all of this work, to unravel not just the event, but


09;40;16;07 - 09;40;00;14

Jon

the second, third and fourth order effect. And here's where I think the did. The real evil of it is I think there's a real lie tied up in this, and that is you're not when if you undergo something bad and then you're comforted into thinking you can escape it and just need comfort?


09;40;00;03 - 09;39;37;17

Jon

Right? I'm finding that I'm find the trail here. The idea? Bed, you need comfort. Over. Strength to work through it healthily is a lie that robs your agency an ability and capability. And that's where you see these safe spaces stepped ramping up.


09;39;37;07 - 09;39;23;26

Jon

We, you know, we collectively as a society have lied to people to say, you're not strong enough, right? You won't survive. You're not capable of handling what life is going to throw at you.


09;39;23;25 - 09;39;16;06

Aaron

Let us help us. Let us help you. Or why don't you just let it go? Because it's not something you can bear at all.


09;39;16;04 - 09;39;15;10

Jon

It's such a lie.


09;39;15;09 - 09;39;14;29

Aaron

Yeah.


09;39;14;26 - 09;39;01;17

Jon

And that's that's really what I don't like about at all. It's like, OK, now that that's not true, you're capable of not only handling it, but becoming a stronger, more capable, more compassionate human being in spite of your difficulty.


09;39;01;08 - 09;38;42;07

Aaron

I, but I have a little little plaque in my garage, says this is a do not pray that things will become easier. Pray that men will become stronger. Yeah. And as because back to the potency thing, you know, the repetition decreases potency.


09;38;42;07 - 09;38;36;24

Aaron

Not because the potency is any less than it was in the beginning. It's because you become stronger now.


09;38;35;23 - 09;38;22;14

Jon

And that's what's been so weird about this week specifically, right? I can do this as a family. It's like, Oh my goodness, we've become so much stronger. Yes, with the mindsets we have like, it's an odd phenomenon. But walking through the loss, it's like, Oh my goodness.


09;38;22;14 - 09;38;05;13

Jon

Like, I would have to choose not to take the resilient approach here and by resilient. I'm not saying I'm tough and I don't feel it. That's not it at all. What I'm saying is addressing it head on, grieving, working through it towards positive outcomes and continuing forward.


09;38;04;26 - 09;37;58;00

Jon

Despite that loss. That's resilience, right? So it's like me because I just don't want the machismo idea out there. There's none of that in this.


09;37;56;07 - 09;37;41;21

Aaron

And that's the three step we're talking about. You had it in really fully. Honestly, this sucks and really get into that. And this is why it sucks. This is what I've lost. I'll never have this again, man. I, I feel that.


09;37;41;19 - 09;37;23;00

Aaron

Mm hmm. And then and then and then let it last. Were you really chewing on that some more as long as you need to, as long as you should? But the let it fades really important. Because if we feel let something define us like, well, I had trauma and therefore I will always be this way.


09;37;22;23 - 09;37;08;25

Aaron

Mm hmm. That's that is the unhealthy thing we're trying to avoid. Let's we do not want it to last longer than it needs to. We don't want it and we don't want it to stay in a way that really messes up how we think going forward.


09;37;07;01 - 09;36;48;29

Jon

Yeah, I'm comfortable saying encouraging people to let it in and face it head on. Mm-Hmm. I'm not. Entirely certain on how to articulate the idea of. But last summer to fade because I don't want to encourage myself or anyone else to create a monster that they enjoy playing with.


09;36;48;15 - 09;36;38;06

Jon

Right, right, right, right. I really want, you know, a month from now, this isn't going to be on my mind every day, right? Because it.


09;36;38;06 - 09;36;36;25

Aaron

Will visit. And that's OK.


09;36;36;14 - 09;36;28;14

Jon

You know what it is. I think it's I think it's the last two. I think all three are couples. You let it in. You get you take the full shock of it as much as you can and keep doing that.


09;36;28;02 - 09;36;16;19

Jon

And as you do that, it's many cycles. It's not one big cycle, but the mini cycles feed the big cycle. If I get an idea, right, like right now, boom, just pictured us dropping like laying around in the grave.


09;36;16;19 - 09;36;04;04

Jon

OK, that wasn't a terrible part of the night. Was actually a nice part of the night. But like, if that mind comes into my mind, I'm like, Yep, that's exactly right. OK, there's nothing else here. Just jumped into my brain, OK, I just let it in.


09;36;03;16 - 09;35;51;03

Jon

I let it last. I thought through it. And then, guess what? I'm going to let it go. I'm going to let it fade. And I think if you have to do it each time in incrementally, it removes the strength and potency that could be negative over time.


09;35;51;02 - 09;35;43;28

Jon

And that's the best way I've passed out to balance that right? Because you don't want to become like, there's also a level of them.


09;35;43;27 - 09;35;30;29

Aaron

Yeah, it's not linear sequential by any means. It is. It is sort of this parabolic going back to and getting a little further every time as you go up and down through those stages or pieces of it, you know?


09;35;30;24 - 09;35;15;07

Jon

Yeah. And you made the great comments like, you don't want this to become part of your identity. Yeah. And I'm thinking like, there's definitely a matter of proportionality to loss. Right, right. Like, at the end of the day, Lindsey and I are talking about some of the things we were grateful for in what happened, right?


09;35;15;06 - 09;35;01;29

Jon

one, she I. I genuinely do not think she had a clue of what happened. She is chasing target, whatever and lights out. I mean, it was a very large tow truck, thank goodness. She had a total carcass. How big she was.


09;35;01;19 - 09;34;49;28

Jon

So I mean, they're going probably 60. So it was like I was grateful that I did have to put it out, right? Because where I live, that I would have had to put her down here and now to suck sucked and she'd have been suffering.


09;34;49;28 - 09;34;32;22

Jon

So. Of course, she didn't suffer. That's good. Something else. It wasn't one of her kids. Hmm. Right. Mike, we're very strict. I do not think that the kids would ever be on that road. Right. We've been very severe and he just talking about it and like laying the foundation.


09;34;32;14 - 09;34;20;20

Jon

But I think I wasn't a kid that were bearing, right? Thank God, it's not my wife or friend, you know, so you start to go through these things. It's like, wow, like it doesn't diminish the pain, but it puts it in its proper perspective.


09;34;20;20 - 09;34;11;03

Jon

And I think there's a good distinction there. We need things to be in the proper perspective because it's like you. I'll be a lot better after a week with our own than I would be with my wife. Mm hmm.


09;34;11;01 - 09;33;47;18

Jon

And that's fair and good and like we need to have. I think it's fair for us to have honest discussion so that we can properly. Proportionately respond to the news. Yeah, because if I think about even the safe room, right, it's like you say frickin word like a one syllable were drawn in, like people will melt and


09;33;47;18 - 09;33;42;01

Jon

say, OK, that is talking about proportionality. That is not something that should own that much investment from you.


09;33;39;03 - 09;33;29;06

Aaron

That's just taking stock. I think as a were trying to get to as well. I mean, because we are talking about we're talking about stewardship of the pain, the grief, the fear, the pain that can ensue during that.


09;33;29;04 - 09;33;07;06

Aaron

Yeah, that circumstance. But I don't I don't want anyone to suffer longer than they have, as if it's a badge of honor. I like to talk about a loss as if it defined you in people. I think they make it like a noble pursuit, like because I've never allowed it to be less painful than it needs to


09;33;07;06 - 09;32;50;14

Aaron

be. That means I honor it more than you. It's like I would question that I would say, Are you really grieving correctly? Because 9:11, for example, was horrible that day for everybody. Mm hmm. Do I wake up every day feeling like that?


09;32;49;27 - 09;32;33;08

Aaron

No, not because I revere it any different. It's because we went through a process together as as friends and family. Now, hopefully you did. If you did it at some point, you do. If you lose anything and you didn't deal with it, you will have to deal with it at some point.


09;32;33;08 - 09;32;20;13

Aaron

But if you did, it's OK to be like, it doesn't hurt me as much before now. Something might bring it back at such a cycle like, Oh man, you'll remember something you'll see it like for you. For example, you may see a dog toy.


09;32;20;13 - 09;32;12;17

Aaron

You may see something that now spark that. That's OK. Like, yeah, it's like, you're not going backwards, you're actually staying healthy when you feel those feelings.